This morning - parents questioning gender identity stuff

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Two parents taking school to industrial tribunal for allowing a boy to attend school in a dress just got fairly slated by Phil & Holly. I found it the most frustrating 5 minutes of tv I've seen in a while. I'm short on time... but wondered if anyone else saw it & what you thought?

Don't know enough about the parents/situation to say I fully agree with their stance. But they seemed reasonable. It was frustrating to get caught up on the dress issue. Wear a dress all you like but It is unreasonable to expect children to understand and accept you as a girl one day and a boy the next boy a daily basis. It was the shutting down of debate that was stark to me...

I didn't see it but there was a brief mention of it on the radio this morning. The headline was very much making it out like the objecting parents were being unreasonable but they didn't go into any detail about the situation. They didn't really even explain what the parents issue actually was. Were the children being expected to use a different name depending on whether the child felt they were a boy/girl? Were they getting told off for misgendering?

That's the thing none of that was mentioned. It was hard to tell if the parents were unreasonable or not. It seemed maybe not but hard to tell as the details were sparse. They were mainly portrayed as bigoted for having any issue and wanting it thought through more. I think.

Yes was going to post about it. Several articles published today with headlines like 'Christian parents sue school for a allowing a boy to wear a dress' and gives a very negative bible bashing religious nutter type tone to the story.

In fact, when you get to the bones of the story, they took their child out of school because he was distressed by what he was being taught about gender trans ideology. They do not seem to be in any way negative about trans issues as such.

Certainly, there is no reason why the boy should not be allowed to wear a dress, but teaching children that they can change sex is a completely different matter.

Also, I do get frustrated that anyone associated with Christianity is mocked and derided as rightwing bams.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4869682/Christian-parents-sue-school-boy-wearing-dress.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/christian-parents-sue-school-allowed-wear-dress-uniform-transphobia-church-enland-a7938926.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/10/parents-sue-christian-school-boy-allowed-wear-dress/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

I heard them on Radio 4, and I thought they came across very badly.

They kept saying their own children were very confused by the child's uniform changes. I would have liked the interviewer to challenge them on this confusion.

My DC wouldn't be confused/bothered by this.

There didn't seem to be much more to it than uniform changes.

They actually came across badly on this morning.

Why did they come off badly? What did they say?

Sorry, I didn't see the This Morning thing, just read the articles today

The objecting parents were interviewed at length on R4 Today. I am still not clear what their actual issue is, although in summary it seems to be that their child is confused by the inconsistency of a classmate sometimes wearing a dress and sometimes wearing trousers. The objecting parents seem absolutely incapable of finding a way to reassure their child, or offer them any explanation to reduce the confusion that clothes are clothes (e.g. "Well Mildred is a girl and she sometimes wears trousers and Michael is a boy and sometimes he wears a dress - they are still your friends whatever they wear"). Their child has apparently become so distressed at the sight of a 6yo classmate in a dress that the only solution has been to withdraw them from the school. Even though they love the school and love the parents and love the children. Throughout the interview, the parents were unable to articulate what the actual problem is.

Personally, I think it matters not one bit whether a child wears a dress or trousers to school - it is a matter for the school and the parents of that child. I may think the parents are loons if they seem to be pushing for medical changes, but I would not share that opinion with my own children, nor would I remove my child from a school which we as a family "love".

I thought the parents came across as unprepared for the interview, they seem like good people and good parents but not I'm not really sure what they objected to? I know what my objection would be, but not theirs.

It's the first time I've seen Philip Schofield conduct an interview, are his producers aware of just how awful he is do you think? No impartiality from either Philip or the woman next to him, and I think they did more talking than the couple.

The problem with transgender pupils arises when schools fail to properly address and educate regarding what transgender actually is. If you have a child make a transition and expect the other children to accept it and respect it without explaining what has happened and why it will inevitably cause problems and a great deal of confusion. However, educating pupils about the issue is in itself a problem. Young children cannot be expected to understand the biological and psychological science of it but giving them a simplified version of events can often clash with their parents' wishes (whether the parents a prejudiced against the trans community, supporters of trans rights or even trans themselves). The rise of trans awareness and rights is (unfortunately) a very recent development in our society and it will take a while before educators develop sensitive and useful ways to deal with the issue. The fact that trans issues can effect prepubescent children (in contrast to LGBQ issues for example) makes it even more difficult to know how to broach the subject appropriately. I think that parents need to have a little bit of patience with schools and schools need to take on board feedback from all parents.

I would take issue if my children's school were teaching them that people can change sex. Because they can't. But they should be able to wear a dress if they want or any gendered school uniform

I dont really get the issue - surely he doesnt got confused by girls wearing trousers, but he gets confused by a boy wearing a dress. Probably because the first is seen as socially acceptable. Why, when he questioned it, didnt his parents say, well he can wear whatever clothes he wants, some days he feels like wearing a dress, some days he feels like wearing trousers.

The objecting parents were interviewed at length on R4 Today. I am still not clear what their actual issue is, although in summary it seems to be that their child is confused by the inconsistency of a classmate sometimes wearing a dress and sometimes wearing trousers. The objecting parents seem absolutely incapable of finding a way to reassure their child, or offer them any explanation to reduce the confusion that clothes are clothes (e.g. "Well Mildred is a girl and she sometimes wears trousers and Michael is a boy and sometimes he wears a dress - they are still your friends whatever they wear"). Their child has apparently become so distressed at the sight of a 6yo classmate in a dress that the only solution has been to withdraw them from the school. Even though they love the school and love the parents and love the children. Throughout the interview, the parents were unable to articulate what the actual problem is.

Yes, that's what I meant to say.

It wasn't just about clothes though - the boy wearing a dress also changed his name to a female name on the days he wore the dress.

I saw this in the ST. How's this for thought crime:

The school said it had policies to tackle transphobic behaviour, which included an inability to believe a transgender person was a “real” female or male; refusing to use the person’s adopted name, or using “gender inappropriate pronouns”; and feelings of discomfort and an inability to trust or connect with someone based on their transgender status.

Enforced denial of reality. Could it be any more regressive?

I don't give a shit if the boy wears trousers or a dress, I am happy for uniform policies to be changed to allow all children the same options.

But wearing a dress does not mean a boy has magically become a girl. He's a boy. In a dress.

Wow, I can't get my head around that, so not sure how a 6 year old would cope. If I see a man in a dress I don't think 'woman', I think 'man in dress'. I'm not sure there's much I can do about that.

More balanced argument on the Victoria Derbyshire show - I'd watch that one if I were you.

Bloody hell, Talking.
All the best to the parents. I would be pulling my kids out of school at that level of enforced reality denial. That is really frightening.

Oh, and when they were asked if the problem was what the school had been saying to pupils about the situation - they said they didn't know what the teachers had said to the pupils. Which made me wonder what sort of dialogue (if any) they had had with the school before deciding to withdraw their child. Surely the very first thing you would do, as the parent of a confused and distressed 6yo, is to ask the teacher what had been said so you could better understand what he found so distressing.

I'm afraid the whole story has really annoyed me. I have very real concerns about the transagenda around transitioning very young children and have been hoping to see a sensible discussion about it in the media. Instead the story is about inarticulate Christian parents with no clear reasoning looking (at best) foolish and (at worst) bigotted and making everyone with any concerns look half-baked.

Read the article in the Independent. So this is about genderism nonsense, not about boys wearing dresses.

I have to say, I agree with the parents. Being taught that one of his male classmates now "is a girl" and will be "dressed as girl" is an attempt at brainwashing.

If it was just a boy in a dress, and no one demanded that the children pretend the boy in a dress is anything other than just that - a boy in a dress - then I'd say the parents are unreasonable.

But of fucking course a child would be distressed by adults telling him that if you put a dress on a boy, that boy becomes a girl. I mean, think about it. That's like telling a child that they might turn into a mouse if they eat too much cheese. That sort of thing can really scare small children.

What happened to the Christian value of tolerance?

I agree Tick. The Christian emphasis deliberately undermines the credibility of the parents. Why isn't the story headlined that parents are concerned that children are being compelled to lie and to accept lies as truth?