Choosing what to wear

[Seachangeshell]

Something I have been pondering recently is the choices we make about what we wear and how this relates to feminism. Sorry, not going to make much sense as I have a slight hangover and three small boys making a wild racket in the next room!
In a way it's a bit frivolous because fashion doesn't seem to matter all that much, but women have been controlled through what they are expected to wear. We have been told what we should and shouldn't wear. Women breaking out of these expectations can be seen as making a feminist choice. But then I've seen a lot on here about we can make a choice about what we wear but it's not a feminist choice.
For example, early in the 20th century women were expected to wear crippling corsets. A woman daring not to would be making a feminist choice.
A woman choosing to wear trousers in the 1920s was going against the grain. Trousers were for men, she shouldn't wear them. They made her feel free to be more active to take control of her space.
So now we have wearing makeup, shaving legs etc. as a feminist issue. Because it's society's expectation that we should look groomed then to go hairy and not wear makeup would be the feminist choice. Would it?
Or would it be that a woman should be able to do whatever she damn well likes with her clothing and body and that is feminist because she can choose? Because we have been controlled through rules about clothing in the past.
There, I haven't put that well but I know what I mean at least!

In a free society, rather than the one we have now, a woman could do whatever she chose, and be sure that it was a free decision.

Right now, women are expected to be hair free. I was just on a bus to an aeroplane, and most people were in shorts. Every man had hairy legs, and every woman had hair free (removed, not even short, blond hair). In that environment, how can a woman be freely making a decision to go hair free (or a man to shave his legs come to that)?

So in this society, right now, going with hairy legs is a feminist decision - it's making the call that your natural body is just fine, and you don't have to do what patriarchal society dictates.

Shaving your legs is going along with the patriarchy - it's not a decision that a woman who's been raised in this society is really freely making, although it is a completely understandable one.

That being said, if you want to shave your legs, shave them - the really important feminist act is to not shame other women who choose not to in my opinion.

Or would it be that a woman should be able to do whatever she damn well likes with her clothing and body and that is feminist because she can choose?

It's this to me whilst personally also acknowledging much of what I "choose" is influenced significantly by society and expectations of appearance for girls and women. I'm free to not ever shave my legs, for example, so as I do, I'm choosing to do so. However, I have no idea what I'd do if it wasn't something I associate with a better appearance and been told this by a culture which deems women shouldn't have body hair. I suspect I might not devoid of such influences given boys and men don't tend to rid themselves of body hair. The same goes for makeup: yes it is a choice, but the only people who apply it in our household are my mum and I, so why is it always women who choose to apply it and barely ever men? I have some friends who genuinely love makeup and really enjoy the application and so forth but also there are some like me who use it on occasion but have no interest in it - yet it's something I do. To me this suggests I'm clearly not making an entirely "free" choice, despite being free not to shave legs or apply makeup, if that makes sense. The same also goes for my hair - I have hair which would be considered "feminine" in style and length which I feel looks better, but I've never had short hair, and why do I think it "looks better" if not because it's what we tend to be told looks good on women?

I don't think the solution to any of this is to dictate what "the feminist choice" would be because that in a sense limits choice as much as pressures currently do. Girls and women can love makeup, shave legs and so on and be passionate feminists - I know many who are. However I also think it's important to consider why these are "choices" uniquely made (for the most part) by girls and women and which are all concerned with altering our natural appearance and cultural perceptions of beauty.

spaghetti agreed. The most important thing as feminists is not to shame women for their choices, whether they shave their legs or not.

nolove thanks also.
I think it's a shame we have to be always reacting against the patriarchy in some way on this. Seems we aren't actually empowered to make our own choices. We're either choosing to fit in with expectations or actively go against them (actively, because they are so ingrained so it has to be a conscious choice). Men don't have to react in this way.

I feel that my sexuality is an important part of who I am. I don't want to be objectified, but I don't want to hide myself either. So I shave my legs because I like the smooth feel of it, I wear makeup because I like the way I look in it, I wear feminine clothing sometimes because I love the way it makes me feel. I want to feel attractive - I think that is quite a common human experience. I don't think that sexual attraction always goes hand in hand with objectification.

I want to think that I can reclaim my sexuality as a feminist. Is that impossible or by wearing makeup am I complicit in the objectification of women?

I'm not a slave to it either. I've cracked the art of five minute makeup since having children!

But I do recognise that having hairy legs, for example, could be attractive if we weren't so dictated to.

I definitely don't think you're complicit in the objectification of women Seachangesell. It would be very unfair to say all those who do those things are - I do all of them as well although my reasoning is more because I feel I look better by doing them but more for myself and friends. Sexuality is an important issue though as women and girls are often shamed for theirs when it should be something you 'own' and can be open about, if that makes sense. To me, in society, only male sexuality is encouraged, pandered to and seen as acceptable or something we should all be mindful of.

With me I think with things like shaving legs, clothing deemed "feminine", long hair etc I'm questioning why I think I look better like this or feel better having shaved my legs. It doesn't make sense to me except that it's due to pressures and expectations on girls/women seeing as there's no reason for things such as shaving legs or applying makeup to be the preserve of women and girls if it's a free choice anyone can make. I suppose a general point is some choices don't have to be feminist choices or not feminist choices - they're just things we do in a society in which we're all subject to the pressures of patriarchy.

Or would it be that a woman should be able to do whatever she damn well likes with her clothing and body and that is feminist because she can choose? Because we have been controlled through rules about clothing in the past.

This.

With shaving legs etc. I think it is more the expectation than doing it. If you are expected as a woman to be hairless and judged for being hairy it is a problem. You are, of course, free to remove hair from your own body free from the pressure to be judged for it either way.

Of course we do internalise what society expects from us and in this way we often have to challenge ourselves;

'Am I wearing this because I like it or because I feel it makes me more attractive to men?'
'Am I wearing this outfit over that one because I feel more comfortable or because I think in that outfit people may judge me as slutty?'
'Am I going through this ritual of shaving because it makes me feel better or am I going through this time consuming ritual because I don't want a swimming pool of people judging my hairiness?'

I think it is more about challenging expectation/societal decrees about what women should look like and being free to just be.

For example I like the act of putting on makeup and I don't always shave hair from my body (unless wearing tights and that is for my comfort) but neither act makes me more or less feminist.

(also a skilled 5 minute makeup artist since kids )

But I do recognise that having hairy legs, for example, could be attractive if we weren't so dictated to.

Well exactly - my partner is covered in hair and I find him attractive - men and women can't be so different that natural body hair on one is terrible whilst completely fine on the other - it has to be socially engineered to be this way

Shaving is the Corsetry of Yore.

But I still do it.

Although I know it's dictated by society, because if I feel I don't have to, I won't bother.

I feel that my sexuality is an important part of who I am.

And that's why you have to shave and wear make up?

Is that really your sexuality? Do you have to be shaved and made up and dressed sexily to be sexually attracted to someone, to have sexual thoughts?

Can you not look at a sexy man and think "Wow, he's hot" with your own legs unshaved and your face free of make-up?

I want to feel attractive - I think that is quite a common human experience.

It seems to be a lot more common in women than in men. Imagine your statements being made by a man.
Does it sound like something a man would say?

Regarding corsets, someone on a writer forum once stated that not wearing a corset back in the time of corsets would be like not wearing a bra today. (It would. Corsets were what women used for the same purpose at the time)
And complained how writers who want their character to be a cool and enlightened girl make her drop the corset, but would never, ever, ever dream of having a modern day character go braless.

You know, before I had DC, I bought a fitted corset and it was actually one of the most comfortable things I have ever worn and very supportive. I suspect when you had a good corset you wore it to pieces so the ones we have left are like the uncomfortable bra you shove in the back of the drawer.

This is a timely thread for me as I have been wanting to look nicer but feel guilty over wanting to do so and also feel that, as a sahm, there is no point as it will just get covered in muck.

"I want to feel attractive - I think that is quite a common human experience."
I don't think it is. When I was at school and not preforming feminity correctly (being a little proto-dyke), the comment I most frequently got from the other girls was didn't I want to look attractive? Replying that I didn't see why that had to involve long hair, no hair etc was not an acceptable reply. Trump can look like the back end of a bus and/or a bright orange turnip, but he's still POTUS. Whereas Melanie gets criticised for not being a good enough wife (since she didn't move in straight away), or wearing inappropriate heels in a disaster zone.

somedyke It depends what you mean by attractive I suppose.
I don't think women need to wear makeup or have long hair to look attractive. I both admire women that don't and often find them attractive.
But I like 'performing femininity' as you say. Only to a small extent, but nevertheless it's there and it is connected to my sexuality. That annoys me a bit, but I don't put too much emphasis on the way I look in terms of my self esteem. I try not to anyway.
I do think it's human to want to be attractive, if only to be attractive to one special person.
My husband finds me attractive whether I'm dressed up or just in my pyjamas, which is ideal.

vestal no, of course I don't have to be wearing makeup to be attracted to someone.
But is our sexuality just about who we are attracted too?
When we use the word we usually mean whether we're gay, straight, bisexual. I'm thinking of it meaning more than that. My sexuality in terms of how I feel about myself as a sexual woman.
You know- a bit hippieish

"sexuality in terms of how I feel about myself as a sexual woman. " But is that something that has to be announced and displayed on an everyday basis? Okay, I suppose I partly display the fact that I'm not heterosexual by the fact that I don't display femininity or do femininity at all. But when I'm at work clean and clothes with no visible holes is as 'attractive' as it gets in a similar fashion to my male Colleagues. I don't get the link between being attractive and sexuality unless part of your sexuality is being constantly on display, frankly. And then part of mine seems to be (even if not intended for them) seems to be read by men as displaying that I'm not........

I think that society's views about male appearance is at least as much of a feminist issue.

Men cannot wear dresses and skirts or makeup or shave their legs etc without being thought TV, trans or weird. If expectations about their appearance were less rigid, we would be saying that men and women can wear what the hell they like and not be considered any less of a man or woman. That would free us to not shave our legs etc too. Does that make sense?

Since about the age of 30, I have simply not given a shit whether I am 'attractive' or not. I dress for comfort - low heels with ankle and arch support, elastic waist pants, soft baggy tops in fibres as natural as I can manage. No bra (layered clothes do the job and are more practical in artificial inside climates), no shaving, no make-up, hair that only needs one cut a year and takes about a minute to 'style'. I dress for me and me only.

This is a timely thread for me as I have been wanting to look nicer but feel guilty over wanting to do so and also feel that, as a sahm, there is no point as it will just get covered in muck.

I know that feeling. I do like to look nice and am not sure to what extent that is patriarchal socialisation. Which annoys me.

But then, most of the pretty things I (would) like to wear are just utterly impractical, so I end up not doing it anyway.

And I think that's the difference between a feminist and someone who doesn't think about those things - you still have the desire to look nice, but you see prioritizing other things as a valid option.

But is our sexuality just about who we are attracted too?

Well, obviously it is also about who we have sex with. Which requires only one person to be attracted to you. And you yourself state that your husband is attracted to you regardless of what you wear.

But seeing your sexuality as being about other people's attraction to you is a very feminine thing - I don't think there are many men who do that. Well, hetero men, anyway.
Men want women to be attracted to them, but they see this as innate trait, not something to display via clothes. I have heard men complain about women not being attracted to them because they weren't "tall, dark and handsome", but never heard a man say "I like to wear this shirt, it makes me feel manly and attractive".

I think women see themselves through the lens of the male gaze a lot.
(I do too - it is near impossible not to. The fact that I sometimes dress with the intent to deflect the male gaze doesn't negate that.)

I have a few pretty things in my wardrobe. I just can't be bothered to wear them unless they are also comfy :). I can happily spend ages oogling lacy goth clothes and appreciating their beauty but not be compelled to buy them to wear. I quite like the idea of clothes as art or household decoration and I love fabric museum displays.

I think that society's views about male appearance is at least as much of a feminist issue.

It is only a feminist issue insofar as it is a symptom of patriarchy and would go away with the abolition of patriarchy.

But I don't think it is feminist's job to free men. Women made the wearing of trousers acceptable for women. Men can make the wearing of skirts acceptable for men, if they so choose. Apparently, most men do not choose so.

If it was acknowledged that a man with make up, high heels and a dress is not a woman, transwacktivism would be much less successful, but considering that they now force us to also pretend that men who do not perform femininity at all are women, just because they say so, I doubt that making skirt-wearing acceptable for men would have helped us any. It is inherent in patriarchy that to be a man is a privilege, and womanhood is the scrap heap for everyone who doesn't meet the criteria for manhood - a scrap heap a man can voluntarily throw himself on, and demand to be accepted.

(Besides, how would we go about that, anyway? Women fought for trousers by wearing trousers. Women wearing skirts does not make wearing skirts acceptable for men. Men would have to fight their own fight. Which so far, they haven't done.)

Men do wear skirts and suchlike in some cultures banishes self to pedants' corner

the comment I most frequently got from the other girls was didn't I want to look attractive?

What's the thing that men most level at lesbians? It's that sensible shoes thing - unattractively dressed etc. Completely missing the point that they're women attracted to and trying to attract women, and women are socialised (whether lesbian or not) to put much less emphasis on outward appearance (otherwise most men wouldn't stand a chance with hetero women).

It seems to me that lesbians must be the closest we can get at the moment to women who dress for themselves, not for the patriarchy.

Vestal I don't disagree with you on that. Was more an observation than a call to arms on behalf of the men!

I feel that my sexuality is an important part of who I am. I don't want to be objectified, but I don't want to hide myself either. So I shave my legs because I like the smooth feel of it, I wear makeup because I like the way I look in it, I wear feminine clothing sometimes because I love the way it makes me feel. I want to feel attractive - I think that is quite a common human experience. I don't think that sexual attraction always goes hand in hand with objectification why do you think men don't do what you have just stated?
Also, those who do, are categorised as feminine when they could easily be men and be themselves with all that you have mentioned.
By characterising it as feminine gives it a different value and meaning. To women it adds value to your appearance while with men it detracts from masculinity.

If you touched a hairy man, do you jump and not want to touch their hairy self again? Do you ever feel like it's something that should not be there?
Lastly what makes you think that it makes you attractive or it enhances your appearance?

The thing is you will never know whether your choice was made consciously without sub conscious or unconscious bias due to your upbringing of societal values.

I do all of them as well although my reasoning is more because I feel I look better by doing them but more for myself and friends do you think you are hiding what society as a whole does not want to see? When you look better, you are getting closer to societal standard of what looks beautiful. Hiding things that you don't want people to see. Smoothing the skin making it look healthy, a known sign that you are healthy to reproduce with. The bench mark of beauty and how you should look. The confidence you get is closer to the bench mark of the set standard.

What I don't know is wether by doing that you are inevitably competing with other women even though that is not your intention.

I am not judging here because I am in the same boat as you two, a part from shaving.

Primarily I choose clothes for comfort too. I usually wear trousers and flats.
I make the choice to 'perform femininity ' because of socialisation. I'm not daft.
Which annoys me.
But I still do it.

The only other option it seems is to do the opposite, to actively not wear makeup, not shave my legs, never dress up.
Somehow if I were to do that it wouldn't feel like much of a choice either.

It seems to me that lesbians must be the closest we can get at the moment to women who dress for themselves, not for the patriarchy

What a patronising comment. Why is it a given that wearing plain clothes is dressing for yourself but anything else isn't?

It ignores the fact that there are many styles preferred by women which are not attractive to men. Laura Ashley in its hey day for example - ultra feminine. I loved it but have never met a man who thought it was anything other than hideous.

You might hate it because it was so feminine but it was definitely women dressing to please themselves. Much of it (at its peak) passed the practicality test too. Cool in summer , warm in winter, easy to wear, not revealing or skimpy and made of natural materials.

Or at the other extreme there is the Anna Wintour immaculately tailored ice queen look or anyone wearing anything from designers like Dries van Noten or Issey Miyake or mad as box of frogs Bjork or Helena Bonham Carter style. Not dressing to please themselves? I don't think so.

I quite like the idea of clothes as art or household decoration and I love fabric museum displays

I love the idea of clothes as art.

Completely missing the point that they're women attracted to and trying to attract women, and women are socialised (whether lesbian or not) to put much less emphasis on outward appearance (otherwise most men wouldn't stand a chance with hetero women)

I don't actually find the vast majority of heterosexual men attractive. Outward appearance counts for a lot.