Choosing what to wear

[Seachangeshell]

Something I have been pondering recently is the choices we make about what we wear and how this relates to feminism. Sorry, not going to make much sense as I have a slight hangover and three small boys making a wild racket in the next room!
In a way it's a bit frivolous because fashion doesn't seem to matter all that much, but women have been controlled through what they are expected to wear. We have been told what we should and shouldn't wear. Women breaking out of these expectations can be seen as making a feminist choice. But then I've seen a lot on here about we can make a choice about what we wear but it's not a feminist choice.
For example, early in the 20th century women were expected to wear crippling corsets. A woman daring not to would be making a feminist choice.
A woman choosing to wear trousers in the 1920s was going against the grain. Trousers were for men, she shouldn't wear them. They made her feel free to be more active to take control of her space.
So now we have wearing makeup, shaving legs etc. as a feminist issue. Because it's society's expectation that we should look groomed then to go hairy and not wear makeup would be the feminist choice. Would it?
Or would it be that a woman should be able to do whatever she damn well likes with her clothing and body and that is feminist because she can choose? Because we have been controlled through rules about clothing in the past.
There, I haven't put that well but I know what I mean at least!

Indeed Sylvia - women and girls, no matter what. Judged, derided and blamed no matter how we dress, whilst being constantly bombarded with messages suggesting our worth is our appearance.

Yes Sylvia that's exactly it.
The minimum standard for females I don't much higher than it is for men.
As witnessed by myself this morning.
If the majority of women dressed with as much effort as men they would be kambastard.
Never mind te make up and shaving etc.

I think of this topic often. When I was a kid my mother wanted to me wear pink dresses, literally, and to do my hair and makeup and I ran the other way (until I dove into hair and makeup as a teen!). My exh used to say that my taste was masculine. I wanted to be attractive to my exh so I adjusted what I chose. We still meet up as friends and I sometimes wonder if he still thinks my choices now are masculine. My OH now is my OH for many many reasons, but one small reason is that he doesn't care what I wear. Also, I'm older and while I still want to be seen as attractive, primarily I want to be happy with what I'm wearing, and it turns out I really suit pink!

I have had go through a long psychological process to get to a point where I'm happy with what I wear, because of all the hassle I had from men as a teenager and younger woman.

It's hard on these threads because different people are coming from different perspectives.

I was discussing with friends recently whether I'd done the right thing with DD. Because I wanted her to enjoy clothes and aesthetics (which she does) and I wanted her to be comfortable with feminine and androgynous clothing styles (which she is, and which you have to learn how to achieve) but at the same time I wanted her to be non judgemental about other people's appearance and know that appearance is only a small part of who she is.

Threads like that one on teenagers display an attitude that is hugely damaging, and ignore the reality of sexual assault.

Threads like that one on teenagers display an attitude that is hugely damaging, and ignore the reality of sexual assault.

That's why the thread in question infuriated me. I knew these misogynistic attitudes towards teenage girls are widespread but seeing so many harbour them and victim blame on a forum primarily used by women and from so many mothers was quite disheartening and very concerning.

In terms of hassle from men, it happens no matter what a girl or woman is wearing; the first time many experience street harassment, myself included, being in school uniform helps show that.

primarily I want to be happy with what I'm wearing

This should be the main reason for all clothing choices

'In terms of hassle from men, it happens no matter what a girl or woman is wearing; the first time many experience street harassment, myself included, being in school uniform helps show that.'

People seem to think this is just said as a badge of feminist belonging, rather than an actual statement of the truth. It's so important that people understand that women and girls are harassed regardless of clothing style.

'In terms of hassle from men, it happens no matter what a girl or woman is wearing; the first time many experience street harassment, myself included, being in school uniform helps show that.'

People seem to think this is just said as a badge of feminist belonging, rather than an actual statement of the truth. It's so important that people understand that women and girls are harassed regardless of clothing style.

It is. It's abhorrent and the only responsibility lies with men to stop harassing us.

I think, I hope, I use clothes to intimidate that is my intention anyway.

I work in quiet a male environment and by looking 'put together' it gives an impression of competence and professionalism and an implication I pay attention to detail.

I admire those with saggy boobs and do not care. (This is not about the above comment). It takes brave women to do so.
Or those who do not really care.

Bras are about comfort for me though. If I'm out for a run I'll wear a sports bra but even if I'm just running up or down stairs, it's much comfier with a bra on. I can't be arsed with heels or makeup though because I just don't see the point (although I know plenty of other women do).

I'm also rocking my increasingly number of white hairs, I actually think they look pretty good.

I'm a lesbian, by the way.

When does "this item of clothing does not suit you" become misogynistic? I think there is certain type of body shape that everyone is supposed to emulate. If your body does not suit that, it's wrong. I think that's what makes it misogynistic is that if you follow the loved body shape in one country or the west and then compared it to the rest of the world you start to see differences and body shapes are never the same. Also, what people do to their bodies to suit those types is an indication.

Am I being oppressed by patriarchy or fashion? I think fashion is a means by which patriarchy oppresses people. It changes when view points change and you can see that in the evolution of fashion. Without ideas, fashion can't change.

The aspect of fashion that really really annoys me is that women who dress in interesting ways or or otherwise indicate that they are into fashion are so often dismissed as bimbos or airheads.

You might not like her politics, but I admire Theresa May for pushing back against this one pretty firmly.

I think fashion trumps patriarchy in the Oppression Olympics.

Men also get stick for not adhering to fashion although not as much as women.

@Moussemoose men are part of patriarchy. Fashion exist within that ideology the same way religion does. They monitor behaviour and change when views change. Fashion just makes sure both men and women stay in their lane. Men crossing the boundary is no no in to the female territory because females clothes has less value compared to men.
Fashion through patriarchy, also dictates which clothes are respected more and at the moment it's suits and ties. It's in keeping with patriarchy's image of who they want in power. Fashion feeds patriarchy.

You might not like her politics, but I admire Theresa May for pushing back against this one pretty firmly

Theresa May has excellent dress sense. Nicola Sturgeon too now has the confidence to dress stylishly and often picks new, local designers.

I think Theresa May has actually toned down her clothes since becoming Prime Minister. Sad- but you can see why- the ridiculous media focus on women's appearance can only be a distraction. In order to be taken seriously, women have to dress in an adapted male style. They always have- think of girl's school uniforms from the beginning of formal education for girls.

nolove. You look fab. I hope you had a great night out. Enjoy dressing up. It's fun, you're free to do it and you are not harming the cause by doing so.
I bet you're just as beautiful without a scrap of makeup on.
But most importantly, you are beautiful on the inside which I can state confidently on what I know of you from reading your posts.
God, what a cliche, I know yeuch! But the best cliches are there because they're true xx

I was the original OP on this and I have really enjoyed the discussion. I haven't had time to respond properly, because it's given me a lot to think about, but I will at some point.

Thank you Seachangesell for the lovely compliments! I agree about such sayings and very much hope it's accurate with regards to myself. It's definitely the most important thing

It is a very interesting topic. I don't apply makeup every day but as it's not something I'm particularly into I do question why I do it. As has been discussed, I have a free choice whether to do it or not but given it's something almost exclusively done by women and girls the impact of expectations of appearance can't be dismissed.

I do wonder if you might consider getting your picture deleted as it's quite identifying. We speak our minds here don't we and anonymity keeps us safe from certain people.

Ah, I see you have done so!