Choosing what to wear

[Seachangeshell]

Something I have been pondering recently is the choices we make about what we wear and how this relates to feminism. Sorry, not going to make much sense as I have a slight hangover and three small boys making a wild racket in the next room!
In a way it's a bit frivolous because fashion doesn't seem to matter all that much, but women have been controlled through what they are expected to wear. We have been told what we should and shouldn't wear. Women breaking out of these expectations can be seen as making a feminist choice. But then I've seen a lot on here about we can make a choice about what we wear but it's not a feminist choice.
For example, early in the 20th century women were expected to wear crippling corsets. A woman daring not to would be making a feminist choice.
A woman choosing to wear trousers in the 1920s was going against the grain. Trousers were for men, she shouldn't wear them. They made her feel free to be more active to take control of her space.
So now we have wearing makeup, shaving legs etc. as a feminist issue. Because it's society's expectation that we should look groomed then to go hairy and not wear makeup would be the feminist choice. Would it?
Or would it be that a woman should be able to do whatever she damn well likes with her clothing and body and that is feminist because she can choose? Because we have been controlled through rules about clothing in the past.
There, I haven't put that well but I know what I mean at least!

@VestalVirgin I agree with the post at 12:13

But I like 'performing femininity' as you say. Only to a small extent, but nevertheless it's there and it is connected to my sexuality. That annoys me a bit, this is what I find fascinating. Trans people say the same thing. The belief that by playing a role you become feminine and a woman. it's something you are not when not in the role. But what you have as woman is enough to be appreciated and valued in its won right. What you do to meet societal standard does not change your biology and what you can give the world. (Maybe I should take this advice too. It's easy to say, but almost impractical when it comes to oneself. Sometimes, it's almost impossible to see the beauty without all the added flamboyancy of makeup and the lot while looking like peacock)

Doing it for sexual attraction is a means to which you keep the oh and probably making sure that you are still able to compete with the rest of the women. You know what you think is sexually attractive so play that out to him. You could say it's for yourself but you don't see it yourself and it's the oh who does. In return you expect him to make a judgement. (I don't know how true this but a possible debate).

No bra (layered clothes do the job and are more practical in artificial inside climates but this is hiding your rejection of the norm by making sure it's not seen or noticed. Its like replacing corset with a bra.

I admire those with saggy boobs and do not care. (This is not about the above comment). It takes brave women to do so.
Or those who do not really care.

Somehow if I were to do that it wouldn't feel like much of a choice either. I agree with this too. If you did so, you would be doing it to prove a point by siding with other women rather than what you prefer. It does take away that choice of being yourself because being one way will dictate how you want to be viewed. There is no third box at the moment which would be where you want to be in.

What would be different is if you made that decision without knowing what feminism is. Or if you rejected wearing it because you felt like it and there was no reason to why you did so. Not because of society and how you are viewed as woman.

My thing at the moment is about skinny jeans. I have really slim calves so any other type of trouser (i.e. Straight leg or bootleg etc) look stupid, but I don't know if I just think that because I'm supposed to think that my legs should always look shapely (and they do in skinny trousers compared to other styles). So whilst I tell myself they're the best fit and are also comfy (they actually are), there's probably other stuff going on. Or is that too much overthinking?!

'But I like 'performing femininity' as you say. Only to a small extent, but nevertheless it's there and it is connected to my sexuality.'

It's worth remembering that many other women are enjoying feminine clothing without there being any sexual element to it.

*I quite like the idea of clothes as art or household decoration and I love fabric museum displays

I love the idea of clothes as art.* Me too but not in the context of household decorations. I just think of women constantly doing it. Most men have the art of being plane with no intention on over the top decoration of oneself. They wash, shave face, cut their hair and wear plane cloths that look the same. Women who do this are constantly called boring and unimaginative even though they probably have more freedom instead of worrying about frivolous cloths, make up and other things. No man would be called plane for not doing more than necessary.

Men want women to be attracted to them, but they see this as innate trait, not something to display via clothes. I have heard men complain about women not being attracted to them because they weren't "tall, dark and handsome", but never heard a man say "I like to wear this shirt, it makes me feel manly and attractive". Nope! I don't agree with this one. I don't think it's innate. If it is, what you are saying is that it's within us to feel this way. Biological.
If it's innate, why can't they wear dresses and not feel emasculated? Most kings loved to be flamboyant, draped in gold and diamonds. With red or purple/pink as colour of power. They would put most women to shame if it was compared. High heels where originally designed for men.

Well, ask a man to walk down the road in a tutu to attract women? They choose what they were based on how we will view them. Those who break the norm will be viewed differently. It's how we all police ourselves to meet societal standard.

lass Another recent fashion is called 'man repeller'. An anti-patriarchal fashion statement surely! Women dressing to please themselves.
Also many lesbians have a very feminine way of dressing and wear makeup. They could never be accused of doing it for men. So are they more free than me to make that choice?
quencher
I never said that I think makeup, etc makes me feel more of a woman or have more worth. I am well aware of what makes me a woman. I know I'm a woman whatever I do and I respect all women's choices.
I just said it makes me feel more attractive.
I also don't do it for my DH. He doesn't give a flying fig what I wear.
But yes, I want that elusive third way that you talk about. Where I can make a choice that is fully mine without the socialisation or merely doing the opposite to avoid the 'male gaze'.
Not that it matters a great deal in the grand scheme of things. It's not that important an issue. Or is it? Clothing has been used as a way to control women.

'Where I can make a choice that is fully mine without the socialisation...'

You can't. All the clothing styles only exist because of socialisation, because clothing is a cultural invention.

A large part of the enjoyment of wearing different items of clothing is because it is reminiscent of what someone else, somewhere else at some other time wore.

do you think you are hiding what society as a whole does not want to see? When you look better, you are getting closer to societal standard of what looks beautiful. Hiding things that you don't want people to see.

Quite possibly. I do use concealer on skin blemishes for example but in terms of makeup use when I go out (I don't use it daily, but when I go out socially I do) it could be this. I'm frequently socialising only with girls though and do feel I like to look nice for myself and friends, not anyone else. Having said that I suppose I'm at some level mindful of appearance generally. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to "look good", something which isn't specific to one sex, but am well aware that what it takes to be generally considered to be "looking good" is rather different for women than it is for men. Women are expected to "mask" and "alter" ourselves a lot more. I can't deny I feel very happy when I look at myself in the mirror and think everything is looking as I'd want it to but the reasons why that look is what I consider ideal are complex and undoubtedly influenced by society and perceptions of what I should look like due to my sex.

What I don't know is wether by doing that you are inevitably competing with other women even though that is not your intention.

I don't think this is the case because many people do generally want to look good. I'm not sure we'd think a man who was keen to do so (albeit not having subject to the same societal pressure) was competing with other men, so think it'd be unfair if we said girls and women are.

I just said it makes me feel more attractive and performing femininity. Famine roles is what society has assigned to women. Most people think if they act these out it should change who they are or add value to perception of what they want to be. What you do to be feminine is a means by which you justify your womanhood. I was not being offensive on whether you understood you were a womanhood or not. We all use it differently with many reason. But what is clear, is that it defines us at the moment as group. I am not ignoring those who do not conform to this because they are few and far between. We all have something that contributes to this whether knowingly or not ad good or bad.

I think it is an important issue, especially with clothing for young children being gendered so often and girls being pushed towards stereotypically "feminine" attire. I obviously have no issue with such attire seeing as I often wear that kind of clothing myself but when girls and boys are being told at such a young age certain clothing (and along with it behaviours etc) are for them, then when they're a little older some schools still insist girls wear skirts, it has a potentially damaging effect.

lass Another recent fashion is called 'man repeller'. An anti-patriarchal fashion statement surely! Women dressing to please themselves
Also many lesbians have a very feminine way of dressing and wear makeup. They could never be accused of doing it for men. So are they more free than me to make that choice?

I'm unclear what point you are making. You still seem to be supporting the idea only lesbians are capable of dressing to please themselves.

You are also contradicting the earlier poster who stated women who are attracted to women will be less concerned about appearance. Are your lipstick wearing feminine lesbians dressing to please themselves or to attract other women? If the latter your argument falls flat.

It's worth remembering that many other women are enjoying feminine clothing without there being any sexual element to it

Exactly- the examples I gave.

I also think there's an issue with some clothing sold for girls and the male equivalents. For example, shorts being so much shorter for girls than for boys, t-shirts being much more tight fitting and giving less coverage and so forth. This starts for clothing intended for quite young children and says something about how each sex is viewed and what the primary purpose of clothing for each is I think.

SylviaPoe

'Where I can make a choice that is fully mine without the socialisation...'

You can't. All the clothing styles only exist because of socialisation, because clothing is a cultural invention

A large part of the enjoyment of wearing different items of clothing is because it is reminiscent of what someone else, somewhere else at some other time wore

Exactly. I'm a teeny bit sceptical at this idea of women not dressing for themselves notion (unlike presumably any poster who says that?)

When this is discussed much of it just sounds no more than saying I don't like that style of dressing but rather than just leaving it at that I'm going to justify my dislike (in a way which makes me feel superior and other women unenlightened)

You can apply the same methods to art, music, film, interior design, just about anything really.

@NoLoveofMine i agree with your points.

I don't think this is the case because many people do generally want to look good. I'm not sure we'd think a man who was keen to do so (albeit not having subject to the same societal pressure) was competing with other men, so think it'd be unfair if we said girls and women are. Don't you think men manifest this in different ways? For men it's not looks but showing how finically they can provide. (Apparently top reason for why men commit suicide is being financially incapable. Note: I am not mansplaining here). They use this as currency to mate and intern expect guaranteed sexual favours.
Is this not what we we argue about a lot on here. The male entitlement to being providers and being able buying women.
Patriarchy works by giving men opportunity that benefits them financially to meet this standard of being provider. (Yes, i understand there are men who are sahd or earn less than their wives or are poor and working class man , phew! Did I get all of them in? )

Men also measure themselves on how many women they have slept with as a means to how popular they are. Try saying the same thing about woman. I can think of so many negative words that would be used. How many women they can pull. how their body looks. Well look at James Bond and all the super heroes. They all have a similar look as in body.
(I have wondered why it does not affect them the same way as women and I think it's anew phenomenon for them in terms of looks)

@LassWiTheDelicateAir
*A large part of the enjoyment of wearing different items of clothing is because it is reminiscent of what someone else, somewhere else at some other time wore

Exactly. I'm a teeny bit sceptical at this idea of women not dressing for themselves notion (unlike presumably any poster who says that?)* I agree with you both, at the same time when you understand the reason why cloths are the way they are, it can be a bit hard to enjoy it fully without any niggling feeling of what is the right thing to do. This feeling of letting the side down also, comes at a price. It means we are favouring what mean wear. We are not judging their ability and how they stand in society as people based on the style of clothes society has assigned to them. So it becomes a catch 2.

"The only other option it seems is to do the opposite, to actively not wear makeup, not shave my legs, never dress up.
Somehow if I were to do that it wouldn't feel like much of a choice either."
But not doing it, or doing it differently says something, whereas continuing to do conventional femininity says nothing at all, whatever you know or realise inside. Plus women I know who have stopped feel relieved or at least have more time/headspace/money.
I dunno, I never started!
I just get sad that after so many years we're still stuck with the make up heels and shaving thing! Men at least have changing fashions and those annoying hipster beards, but for women even the simple hairy leg or armpit is a follicle too far,.........

a follicle too far,.........

That's a book title, if ever I heard one.

"Are your lipstick wearing feminine lesbians dressing to please themselves...." Which is ignoring the considerable negative impact that butch lesbians experience from not being femme. Doing femme makes it easier to hide your lesbianism, for example, plus even if not hidden fits in so much better with favourite male fantasies of lesbians. There are effects of whatever you chose to wear, the freedom of your particular choosy choice isn't the only issue.

Butch lesbians presumably enjoy the style of clothing they have chosen to wear. It's not a hair shirt.

In relation to the wearing of bra's. Visible nipple terror.

The idea that your nipples are poking out fills most women with terror. I could go braless more often but I never do it at work because of nipple visibility. I am most definitely dressing for society and not myself.

Do you shave your legs for yourself? How often do you shave in winter the time of opaque tights and trousers?

"Are your lipstick wearing feminine lesbians dressing to please themselves...." Which is ignoring the considerable negative impact that butch lesbians experience from not being femme. Doing femme makes it easier to hide your lesbianism, for example, plus even if not hidden fits in so much better with favourite male fantasies of lesbians. There are effects of whatever you chose to wear, the freedom of your particular choosy choice isn't the only issue

My right to wear whatever I want is my right. I am assuming your particular "choosy choice" is a butch look. If that causes you problems it is not my personal battle to solve it by changing what I wear.

Oh good god.

I mentioned lesbians because they're a specialised group - a group that grew up in the same society, but don't have any reason to try to attract men (beyond camouflage/habit/fitting in). I wasn't saying that no other woman can possibly be choosing clothes that they like to wear for themselves, I was just saying that as a group with no urge to attract men, they are perhaps more representative of what a woman would be like outside of our proscriptive society. They obviously can't be completely free either, because they have to live in society too.

I just can't get past the fact that whilst so many women enjoy putting on makeup/high heels/impractical dresses etc. very few men do. That every single woman I have walked past today has had hair-free legs, and none of the men have.

Can it really be the case that only women, and every woman finds enjoyment from hair free legs? Doesn't seem very likely to me. Seems to me that something must be going on to persuade women that hair free is desirable and something they also enjoy. A sort of stockholm syndrome but with body hair.

Some parts of femininity are a big hassle and some of them are enjoyable for women.

Most men prefer their own cultural clothing styles because they were raised within that culture of dressing.

OK - I'm going to get historical. Fancy, difficult to wear clothing used to be the prerogative of rich men. Men wore heels, cravats and had to be steamed into breeches.

The choice to wear fancy clothes is often about wealth and privilege not just gender.

Yes, in different time periods and in different cultures people wear different clothes, because clothes are a cultural invention.

Mousse when/why did that change?