Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

The current social movement was able to emerge because post modernism had removed the material basis from class analysis

Yes, and with Butler and friends from gender analysis as well.

Much of what was complained about in the OP is the contemporary social justice movement, rather than liberal feminism particularly

For me, it's hard to tell where one stops and the other starts. A lot of SjWs are socialist or anarchist, for example.

Most feminists make non feminist decisions Bert. What feminist decisions do you make in RL and how do they "prioritise women" in a way that feminist decisions by non rad fems don't?

DJBaggysmalls

I didn't mean anything so involved. I read Pizzey's memoir quite a few years ago, but I am relatively certain that it was she that pioneered women's refuges in London. I am also relatively certain that she saw herself as entirely distinct from - and ostracised by - radfems of the time. I make no comment about this (except to say that I was very inspired by Pizzey's book). I'm merely adding some facts to an erroneous statement.

Yes, SJW seems to involve people from a wide variety of ideologies. What seems to bring them together is a kind of mob mentality, requirement to feel guilt or even shame, and admit blame. It also involves public renouncing of prior wrong doing like some kind of show trial.

It has happened historically in both religious and political movements.

Morningrunner, my question "what does this actually mean in RL" is one that I ask numerous times a week in RL from various people, including myself. It is an important one and one that IMO should be asked more often if real change is what is desired. Otherwise we just veer between dreaming and moaning.

This thread is making my head hurt. There is still so much for me to learn.

I was considering if I was more a Socialist feminist after the definitions upthread. But I have decided that I am OK without a label for now. Feminist will do.

I would like to know, however, if there is anything I should be doing?

Rockshandy, it depends what you have time to do, what you are interested in doing and what is available where you live!

rockshandy if there is an issue that affects you personally, concentrate on that. Raise awareness and raise funds. Be as practical as you can.
Keep an eye on the wider issues. For me, legalised prostitution and women being erased as a class are two big issues. Along with the tampon tax, & funding for DV and Rape Crisis.

For example, the 2018 Olympics, is there any point in women competing?
''The International Olympic Committee (IOC), in charge of making the rules for the 2018 Winter Olympic Games in South Korea, said that there will be no sex or gender testing required for the upcoming games.''
dailycaller.com/2017/07/03/heres-what-the-2018-olympic-gender-regulations-look-like/

Theres not much I can do as an individual other than kick up a fuss, and fete the female athletes.

DioneTheDiabolist

What does it mean in RL? I think this may be why I would gravitate towards lib fem rather than socialist.
I can understand the theory and talk a good game but how is X decision going to impact on the real lives of people. I may want this or that but which will move the real life issues forward incidentally. It's a compromise.

It seems there really isn't going to be a revolution

So what can we do in RL?

Rockshandy- is there a particular area that interests you?

Mousse, maybe some examples...

Support for maternity services and the NHS more widely, state pension, social housing, childcare - these are all left wing, big government socialist associated causes.

Campaigns to increase women in STEM fields, having Teresa May as the prime minister, keeping your own name on marriage - that's liberal feminism.

Reducing and highlighting male violence, building up networks of women, liberating women from gendered socialisation through personal experiences - that's radical feminism.

Just a vague starting point from my perspective.

Do liberal feminists want May to be prime minister?

They see women in positions of authority as being valuable in itself, even if those women promote policies that are not positive for women.

That's part of the individualistic element of it. The achievement of some women being an end in itself.

There are so many. I live in NI so that throws up its own set of issues immediately.

I think I don't know enough to start saying what I am bothered by. There is just a general discontent within me. I don't know if things are sliding backwards lately or if it was always this bad and I am just more aware now, but sexism is everywhere. It is in everything. I have two daughters and I want to bring them up to believe in themselves and to have principles. To know their worth and never accept less than they deserve.

But I didn't have that, nor is it around me. So I have no idea what it looks like in practice.

I am worried about the recent upsurge in trans issues encroaching on women's rights. I have no issue with individuals living their own lives how they want, but when they begin to affect the rights of another group of people I think it's gone too far. I feel an overwhelming frustration at how that discussion gets shut down by claims of transphobia. I have never been phobic of any type of person. I resent the suggestion that I am now.

There is an anger building in me that I don't know what to do with.

I am retraining at the minute and in the near future I intend to volunteer for Women's Aid. My end goal is to be in a role that supports and empowers women. So I guess I am being proactive in that sense.

This is a bit of a brain dump. I think I need to get reading.

Maybe the Women's Equality Party is a good example of liberal feminism.

Rockshandy, if you've already got that Women's Aid related stuff to head towards, I'd focus on feminism can help you and your daughters be happy and self confident, especially if you've not got that support around you.

I never want a Tory PM.

But a female Tory is better than a male Tory. Lesser of two weevils?

SylviaPoe

Mousse, maybe some examples

And very good examples they are and non are mutually exclusive.

Yes, which would go back to the point about needing different parts of a movement.

And yes to the weevils also!

But a female Tory is better than a male Tory. Lesser of two weevils?

Personally I believe that a woman who combats feminism does more damage than a man who does the same.

A woman standing for the rights of men gives a damaging validation of the status quo.

I actually think a woman Tory is worse than a man Tory. Because so many Tory policies affect women disproportionately.

I agree, because a female pm endorsing anti-women policies not only validates them, she is used as justification by patriarchy that as it's a woman's decision, then feminists should shut up.

Yep.

And there 's the "what do you mean, women are disadvantaged - the ^Prime Minister's a woman, for heaven's sake!" line

Yes, I can see that point.