Quick - having feminist debate with DS1(14) - I need some statistics

[PacificDogwod]

Could somebody help with some links re wealth distribution between men and women world-wide? Health? Crime statistics?

Much appreciated

Both of my teen dsc (boy & girl) are anti feminist, and think that anything post-suffragettes is just man hating. I don't really feel like I have the power to change anything of to intervene m as they are not my own children, and it is just so depressing knowing what their views are.

Manclife, anyone with half a brain knows the internet is full of hyperbole, hatred, trolling, groupthink, extremism, people having a bad day, people getting worked up and over stating arguments, clunky wording, misinterpretation, assumption making, straw men, people who are just a bit thick, angry people, over invested people, bullying, rage and so on.

If teenagers are coming off Internet forums and believe they actually reflect what people really think contrary to the evidence of everyday life, then there's a big problem with their perception of the world.

Manclife = so misogyny is the fault of feminists? If we were only a bit, what, nicer then there wouldn't be any misogyny? Is that right?

Nope, and your choice of wording is deliberately goading. Misogyny is clearly males hating female but then Misandry is females hating men. Which is why if people want equality it should be a sexism issue.

I would like women to be liberated from male oppression, we can work on the equality after that.

Misandry is the equivalent or reverse racism, it stops people solving problems.

Pacific did ds listen to you?

I think the most significant difference between misogyny and misandry is that we don't have equality and one group has far more real power than the other. This is ingrained in our history and culture. So yes, sexism is analogous to racism.

Any you can't see why a young lad who has done nothing wrong at this stage of his life might find this attitude offensive and might send him to websites that claim they're fighting for 'men's right'. It's no different to calling all white people racist.

If any boys think it's offensive for women and girls to challenge misogyny then that says a lot about them.

I hear you OP,

I have 2 ds. Last year ds1 (who is the first to point sexiest shit out on tv or in general)
Came out with a corker, whilst I was driving along, he comes out "God I hate feminists, they are fucking nasty" I nearly crashed the car!

My first response after WTF did you just say?! was err well i'm a feminist, why do hate us?

I don't think I'd really ever said I was a feminist, just brought then up to understand stuff.

So DS had watched a suggested video on you tube. By some ranty man saying feminists had tried to get him the sack from his job.

Lots of conversations followed along the lines of, you have to be a bit of dick, if you will take anyone ranting on social media, at face value.

I had the same thing with my DS, also 14. I was appalled and started investigating the gamer scene. There 'Antis' are rife and very influential and as far as I can gather, liberal feminists like Anita Sarkeesian and prominent bloggers such as Sargon of Akkad seem to fire up the situation and the positions are extremely polarised. I talked my son round it all in detail and at length. I found addressing historical inequalities in the Western world and current inequalities in developing world was impossible for him to argue with. Also, the rates of sexual assualts on women, including rape threats, such as women like Sarkeesian has received. I also told him that I was a feminist and had been the victim of sexual assault more than once. His father was also v strong on the cowardice of men who threaten and hurt women. It took some time but he's back to the charming boy he is, giving hugs and being funny. The internet is pretty insidious and teenagers are very susceptible to ideas. Good for you for challenging him Pacific. As for those criticising her, get a grip, she's doing a very good job as a mother to discover that he thinks like this and working out how to effectively change his views

I can't say mine is now lovely and cuddly, as his hormones are through the roof and struggling with anxiety and other shit at the moment, and he is selfish cunt, who is all me me me. But but at least he views and treats everyone equally to deal his shit out too.

Sorry just got back from being cooped up with him for a week on holiday and 6 hour car journey home. For him to discover the internet is down. It.is.the.end.of.the.world.

I hear you OP. DS(10) asked me not to tell anyone outside the house that I was a feminist because he was afraid that they would think that I hated men and wanted them to be put away in camps. I explained again what feminism was, why it was needed and pointed out to him how privileged he was to be growing up in a feminist household. I also explained that the ranters and ravers on the Internet were silly little trolls who hide behind keyboards spouting bullshit and not to be taken seriously.

The following evening he talked about how he read that some men could breastfeed, so not to worry when I go back to work after having the baby as he would feed it with his nipples. We had a chat about biology and about what he can do.

Thanks to the Internet, our children are exposed to many extreme views. We fail them if we do not engage with them about these views.

"Then you've not been reading some of the comments I've seen here:

1. One person saying a man must have raped a women despite the woman being convicted of making the whole thing up.

2. Males only get raped in prison and then it's only because there are no women.
   Could you link, please?

Bertrand - I think you may find that Manclife is on a mission on the feminist board to teach us women what we're doing wrong with feminism and to define for us what is 'acceptable' (in his eyes) for feminists to say and believe. He is all over the place, commenting, derailing and 'putting us all right'.
I think we're supposed to feel grateful for his insights becausewe'veneverhadamandothisbeforeonhere as we will never have thought of these things by ourselves

When I grew up all my information came from parents, family, peers, a little TV (3 channels ), some magazines and that was pretty much it.

Now? Everything is available to kids, totally unfiltered and without clear indication of what is fact, what opinion, what hyperbole, what the agendas are - I think it IS far harder to negotiate.

Also, recognising ones own privilege I think is actually really, really hard. Most children believe that how they grow up is the norm when it often isn't.
It is so easy for male adolescents to just comfortably carry on as there are 'equal rights' in the UK etc etc, much much harder to come out of that complacent comfort zone and face some horrible truths.

We must engage and engaging means to keep the conversation going.
It really is v similar to internet etiquette - all very well to say "Well, you are a fucking nutter and an idiot and I am not speaking to you" - fine, but that is unlikely to change any minds/opinions.
I'd rather go with "Really? Show me were you read that/heard that." and then looking at who said, why they said it, IF they said it, what the bigger picture here is etc etc.

They do get bored with me though - attention span of gnats

" I find male rape confusing. Not the rape, so much, but the fact that it is generally in prisons. It suggests that men will do anything to get their dick serviced."

"I think in prison, when men's ability to control women is taken away, they will try to turn other, lower status men, into "women."

"I strongly suspect he also did rape in this case. (didn't read the article, but the "it was consensual" excuse won't convince me here, he'd have to been on the other side of the planet at the alleged time of the rape so I'd believe him innocent.)"

saveusername, that must be hard.
You know you family best of course, and I am not telling you what to do or say. However, I do pull up other people's kids when they spout crap in my house. I don't see why not.
And I would fully expect other parents to do the same with my children at their house, whether it's about misogynistic comments or just general manners.

Manclife, why don't you start a thread to debate these things?

@enoughisenough12

Thank you for supporting my argument.

@PacificDogwod good luck with DS, I'll leave the tread now as some think I'm not allowed on the feminist threads.

Op, I think you're using absolutely the right approach. Engage, discuss, debate and respect. In my decades of experience as a 'good enough parent' and working in education directly with teenagers for much longer, if you don't model respect and take the time to listen and try to understand, then teenagers will look (and these days with social media) will find alternative sources of support and validation. I'd love to turn the clock back where these idiots couldn't influence our children but sadly that's not possible.
I would be asking what your child's school is actively doing to challenge sexism. Sometimes schools can unthinkingly model poor practice and sometimes they're brilliant for challenging sexism.

I would be asking what your child's school is actively doing to challenge sexism. Sometimes schools can unthinkingly model poor practice and sometimes they're brilliant for challenging sexism.

That is an excellent idea, thanks - I will.

The school they go to (local state school) has a good reputation, both academically and socially, but is probably not at the spear head of feminist enlightenment .
Male head teacher, who seems to be a competent and engaging kinda guy (speaks the kids language, calls a spade a spade and takes no cheek while being fair and not disliked - obviously, he is an authority figure, so he can do no right as far as the kids are concerned ) and a good mixture of male and female teaching staff.

I found that it was when my views were mirrored by a 'respected other adult', that was when they (the views) suddenly became 'acceptable' in the eyes of my children. Very frustrating I know but I think that's probably in the job description - to be the person who they can dismiss and eye roll at. If we're lucky, they get through it and we end up with a mutually respectful relationship as adults (with the occasional eye roll)

I am a feminist. This means that I want men and women to have equal rights and opportunities.

I don't want men to lose their jobs. I just want women to have equal access to the good jobs.

I don't want men to have pay cuts. I just want women doing the same job to get paid the same amount.

I don't want men to be subject to regular sexual harassment and sexual assault, at home, at work, and in the street. I just want women not to be subject to that.

I don't want men to lose rights to their kids. I simply want them to fulfil their responsibilities as well.

I don't want men to be beaten up and physically abused and killed by their partners. I want it to stop happening to women.

I definitely don't want men to have their penises cut off. But I do expect them to get consent for where they stick them.

Pacific

Have a look at this video. I think it explains a lot of the male activity online and why young teens can get caught up in groupthink. TBH I think the whole identity politics is responsible for much of this shit. Feminists in particular are very much aligned and actually misrepresented by these fuckers but you can see how impressionable young men would be indignant