Quick - having feminist debate with DS1(14) - I need some statistics

[PacificDogwod]

Could somebody help with some links re wealth distribution between men and women world-wide? Health? Crime statistics?

Much appreciated

I had no idea that NLOM was having a tough time elsewhere, but I did think she was overly harsh. To have nothing to do with a 13 year old brother if he showed ignorance and came out with stupid opinions on women seems very intolerant. There's 4 years between my two, I'm pleased DD sees as an opportunity to educate her brother and enlighten him.

I agree with what NoLove said too.

Why is the op having a hard time for trying to educate her sons and getting them to think? What should she do? Refuse to speak to them as one pp suggested? And what would that achieve?

Op, I can't help with links to statistics but I can give you a cheer from the sidelines. If all parents spoke to their sons and listened to their sons and educated their sons as you are doing, the world would be a better place.

You don't think that discussion and debate are a more effective way of changing a young person' s point of view than shutting them down with a blunt 'You're a fucking misogynist, end of' ?
Critical, analytical, independent thinking skills not required? They just need to know it's wrong and not why? I disagree.

Come to think of it, as a girl in the 1960's, that was the sort of uncompromising response I and my peers got every time we challenged the status quo. Which is probably why I dislike it as a stance.

Of course someone doesn't appear with fully formed balanced world view, the whole point of being a parent is getting a child to adulthood. Disengaging with a questioning child because disagree with it isn't going to change anything. (And schools would be empty)

I can never accurately source anything but I think the number 1 cause of death of girls under 15 is childbirth or pregnancy complications. That's the kicker for me. Under 15's are dying in childbirth. They are pregnant, they have no medical provision.

Why is the op having a hard time for trying to educate her sons and getting them to think? What should she do? Refuse to speak to them as one pp suggested? And what would that achieve?

Well, speaking for myself, I think engaging with something plausible is absolutely correct. But apparently the OP (from her first post) was getting into an argument about whether women are poorer on a global basis than men. Now, I haven't been 14 in a while, but any 14 year old looking at the experience of women globally and thinks that women are richer is either trolling or, as No Love points out, not that bright or thoughtful.

There is a point at which being unafraid to say "go away and think for a moment before bringing that kind of stupid crap out" is a fair answer rather than "you may have equally a point, let me waste my time finding out".

Why is there so much ageism towards No Love of Mine?

I've seen this on previous threads.

I'm glad you've noticed this Sylvia. Whilst the vast majority of posters have always been supportive, there are quite regularly comments of that nature made. Although of course there are many ways in which being older leads to more nuanced opinions, I don't think simply being younger invalidates mine. The most laughable was when a few dismissed my opinions on that thread about teenage girls because I was one

Thank you Somerville and pigeondujour.

I probably didn't articulate my sentiments in the best way and it wasn't a nice way to speak about the OP's son, though I stand by my sentiments about his opinions, so sorry for that. But, no, I'd not have anything to do with either of my brothers if they persisted in coming out with misogynist nonsense after I've explained to them how much girls and women put up with. Even disregarding the most horrific example (which I think about daily), by the time many girls I know, myself included, were the OP's son's age we'd already started being harassed on the street including in school uniforms, subject to misogyny online and offline from boys, in some cases been subject to sexual assaults by them (and yes, "groping" at parties is sexual assault). I also didn't say the OP should say "you're a misogynist" to her son, I said it was my opinion.

There is a point at which being unafraid to say "go away and think for a moment before bringing that kind of stupid crap out" is a fair answer rather than "you may have equally a point, let me waste my time finding out".

Quite. All opinions are not equal and I personally think teaching boys that women will listen to and engage with their opinions no matter how horrible those opinions are sends entirely the wrong message.

Discussion and debate might be helpful with a 14 year old you have never met before, but given the poster in question (who I remember as a lovely poster) how have her children ended up with these views?

Teens who have grown up in houses where love, compassion and understanding for others are the normal values don't come out with these attitudes unless they're exposed to extremism.

As much as we criticise much of the everyday sexism going on in society, it is the norm for trustworthy sources to promote feminism - the UN for example. It's at the level of conspiracy theory to believe feminism wants to get rid of all men and boys, and those kind of beliefs are couched in corners of the internet propagating hate.

So the basic response to an otherwise kind person should be one of concern for how they're picking up such beliefs, and what particular subset of peers they're mixing with if this is a shared belief, because it is certainly not the belief of all 14 year old boys. To me it's no different from if one of mine came in one day and announced they'd become a holocaust denier.

Maybe we're so caught up with how sexist men are on these threads that we're forgetting that many of them really are not that sexist and this kind of belief about feminism is pretty extreme.

If you have got a loving, supportive home, it is a safe place to ask stupid questions and air playground/peer opinions to people that will challenge and educate you on the facts without being bullying. Attacking the argument instead of the person making it.
FWIW NoLoveOfMine, I read your comments on the thread about teenage girls and dress/behaviour and them being linked to sexualisation, and I thought you were spot on.

Quite. All opinions are not equal and I personally think teaching boys that women will listen to and engage with their opinions no matter how horrible those opinions are sends entirely the wrong message.

I concur. Leads to boys thinking all women and girls should not only listen but submit to their opinions, on all sorts of issues but most notably when they're being misogynists, as I've seen many times.

DS, like DH is rarely sexist because the majority of sexism is illogical and can't stand up to rational analysis.

Because submitting to her son's opinions is exactly what the OP is doing.

There is a point at which being unafraid to say "go away and think for a moment before bringing that kind of stupid crap out" is a fair answer rather than "you may have equally a point, let me waste my time finding out"

This

My ds1 is wanting my opinion on fairly standard stuff, he is certainly not stupid enough to come out with the 'women are richer' bit for example

Oh my, this kicked off a bit.

Ok, so 'debate' was the wrong word to use in my title OP - I was not 'debating' with him/them (DS1 and DS2 got involved). I was trying very hard to NOT lose my shit and shout 'you are misogynistic arseholes' at them - I find that very rarely works
I was trying to get them to think. For themselves.
Rather than regurgitate totally half-arsed MRA quotes they heard from their peers/online.
Stuff like 'all feminists are lesbians' - if my eyes could roll any further, they'd fall out of my head!!

NoLoveOfMine, I do understand where you are coming from and don't disagree. I think however (and this has nothing to do with age, but with experience) that how I would (and have!) spoken to my brother is quite different from how I speak to my DSs. And with respect you are simply in no position to appreciate that. I am sorry that life has been stuff for you (I don't know you other thread/s and I dislike advance searching posters).
The misogynistic shit we all put up with day to day is hard to bear, I do know that and it makes me angry too. I am quite sure that if I had daughters our conversations would be quite different; as it is (4 boys) we talk about consent and respect and how girls/women are, you know, human beings just like boys! I know, right?!

Ah well. The struggle continues.
Thank you for the teenage perinatal death info - heart-breaking.

I never said they might have a point btw - I am not sure where that impression came from. That is so NOT who I am.

Try having a DD who calls you an "old-school feminist" with "cisgender privilege".

Tick!
Opens a debate though, we are currently disagreeing on some trans issues.

My dd called me a TERF recently.

The issue you have is people go online and find something an extremist is saying which they disagree with. Perhaps in this case "all men are misogynists" however your son doesn't think that way because he does agree with equal rights so is upset and offended by the arguments put forward. Being a smart lad he goes away and finds counter arguments to try to support his position. Unfortunately the internet being what it is he will only find extreme idioligy on the other scale. But as some of it rings true to him he accepts it as fact.

Try asking your son if he thinks men/women should have equal rights. If he says yes (and stats say he probably will) then get him to google what the 'feminist' definition is. Mime dropping a microphone, say BOOM and back away in victory!

Oh, Rhonda, that must be hard. But also , no?

My DSs are also intensely ageist, hoping to get a rise out of me (I am old and had them at an advance age). I keep telling them the alternative would have been to NOT have them and that shuts them up

Your son hates women, simple as that.

Civil debate will do him no good, you need to be hard on him until he learns some respect.

You'd be astounded how hard some people find intelligent thinking to be. Rather than polemic ranting.

Manclife, yes, quite, which is why critical reading skills are so important IMO, not just on the subject of feminism of course.

Which is why I told them to provide me with evidence.

And I liked that definition of feminism (as opposed of 'equalise') as it referred to 'lifting' everyone up, rather than reducing things down (you know, woman to earn as much as men rather than men earning less, or men having as much leave after a baby is born rather than reducing maternity leave etc etc).

Of course they would say that everybody should have equal rights. They just need to get nudged a bit further.
And they really truly have so little clue about global issues, much as I try....