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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No more girls and boys; can our children go gender free? BBC 2 tonight

343 replies

Ekphrasis · 16/08/2017 18:19

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202lp

I heard PM in radio 4 discussing this research, it seems to hugely benefit girls in terms of their views on their own achievements and the achievements of women in general.

Will listen with interest.

What surprised me (as we have had this language banned in my place of work, with children) is that the teacher, pre experiment, called girls sweetie and petal, and boys buddy etc.

OP posts:
orlantina · 17/08/2017 08:40

I wonder what would have happened if they'd have dressed the baby in 'neutral' clothes?

Would the adult have selected toys to give to the baby - or would they have been baby led?

Fascinating experiment - and adults and society have such an influence.

chickenwire17 · 17/08/2017 08:44

I found the issue around strength really interesting. Javid touched on the idea that strength is also linked to sensitivity, but I would have liked to have seen him expand on that (difficult, though, in an hour long programme). My 14yo DS strongly equates physical strength with superiority, and I often find myself reminding him that strength is also about resilience and coping mechanisms - an idea that he absolutely rejects. I would like to see this idea challenged, but this particular programme isn't really the right vehicle I guess.

Datun · 17/08/2017 08:44

Ekphrasis

Yes, I'm trying to remember the bits of the book that might be objectionable.

There was an assumption that 'boys are like this', and how to address it. (To create well rounded, happy individuals).

So, it could be that he was treating the symptoms, rather than the cause.

And he may well have refined his thinking, since then. It was some time ago.

drspouse · 17/08/2017 08:45

I refuse to read Steve Biddulph as he has completely invented some of his "science" e.g. "testosterone surge".

Thephoneywar · 17/08/2017 08:46

@orlantina

Here's an idea, how about we let teachers teach and children learn without enforcing an ideology on them.

orlantina · 17/08/2017 08:48

Here's an idea, how about we let teachers teach and children learn without enforcing an ideology on them

By default, the teachers teaching was reinforcing an ideology on them.

Thephoneywar · 17/08/2017 08:50

@ekphrasis

Everyone in here who supports this, the people pushing this agenda. Stop trying to police peoples language and thoughts. It's everywhere. Every issues is picked apart and blame assigned.

Thephoneywar · 17/08/2017 08:52

@orlantina

What's ideology is that then? One where people aren't micro managed by the language police.

orlantina · 17/08/2017 08:53

Stop trying to police peoples language and thoughts

Do you think that schools should still teach "white man good, black man savage"?

That was the default many years ago. It influenced behaviour towards people who were 'other'.

We've moved on from that.

Why do you want to help reinforce gender stereotypes and the damaging way children think of themselves? What's your agenda?

orlantina · 17/08/2017 08:55

What's ideology is that then

If you have to ask, then I don't think this discussion is for you.

Thephoneywar · 17/08/2017 08:59

Thanks for that. You know my opinion. I think what you all support is damaging and is a fad. You're so consumed with finding wrong doing that every action, thought and word is policed and any dissenting opinion shut down.

I guess this discussion isn't for me then Confused

orlantina · 17/08/2017 09:03

I think what you all support is damaging and is a fad

If you think that encouraging girls self esteem and confidence is damaging, then I think that says something about you.

Datun · 17/08/2017 09:04

Thephoneywar

It's interesting that you're resistant to this. Can I ask why, exactly?

Not all new thinking is bad.

There have been numerous studies, literally hundreds, showing that the way we treat girls and boys has a profound effect on them.

The reinforcement that girls are compliant, weak, decorative and and unscientific are everywhere.

Don't cry like a girl, run like a girl, throw like a girl, etc. Only showing them princesses who need to be rescued in books, etc. Real life examples on here when the boys are asked to move the tables, but not the girls, they will be asked to clear up.

Boys are encouraged to be physically strong, but that includes hiding vulnerability (cry like a girl). They have to be the one doing the rescuing, not the one being rescued.

It's little surprise that the suicide rate for middle-aged men, is the highest of all groups. Their reluctance to accept help/treatment for distress, being a factor.

It's a little surprise that girls, as they grow up have increasingly low self-esteem. Manifesting as self harming and anorexia.

Breaking down gender divisions, is nothing new. Feminists have been advocating it for decades.

It disadvantages both sexes, but in particular girls.

Don't confuse it with this new youth-driven push for 57 different genders. And all the attendant daft pronouns. It's completely separate.

This way of treating kids as kids, not as 1950s stereotypes, is how children were raised in the 60s and 70s. Our parents might have had more delineated gender roles, but the kids didn't.

It was probably a function of a far less intense consumer society, and the fact that kids were outside, not inside.

MiaowTheCat · 17/08/2017 09:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

snef · 17/08/2017 09:22

I don't understand being gender neutral. I'm not starting a row here I just genuinely don't understand it. I love being a women and have found that many times I also enjoy putting a dress on and went to a school that only had skirts etc. For me there's been so many instances where the differences between the sexes simply exist. For example i can't imagine how you treat a woman being off work for heavy periods is possibly compared to any male scenario. I also find that surely by now if your boy wants to do ballet no one really cares. Ie maybe even if they did care you can still do it.
Women give birth men don't. Women have vaginas men don't. So many differences expected to be overridden just like that? I get not dressing girls in pink and boys in blue but even that helped me when dd was born and looked like a boy for 3 years. I liked her being recognised easily as a girl. Now she is free to wear what she wants. She prefers dresses. I'm not sure if that's my influence but I certainly wouldn't care what she wore. Can we not acknowledge our bodies in a positive way instead of trying to live up to a set standard even if he standard is that men and women can be the same. It's not always the case and I've always felt safer not having to prove I can do what a man can?

orlantina · 17/08/2017 09:25

I get not dressing girls in pink and boys in blue but even that helped me when dd was born and looked like a boy for 3 years. I liked her being recognised easily as a girl

Did you see the bit about the baby and how they were treated differently because of what the adult thought they were? Given different toys, different vocabulary and different expectations?

MrGHardy · 17/08/2017 09:25

ITT Crumbs saying that because something is the way it always been means no one should question it and see if it can't be improved.

I for one if I will have daughters, will encourage them to do sports and give them toys such as Lego or puzzles more traditionally assumed to be boys' toys. Studies have shown that an aptitude for logic and spatial awareness can be enhanced by upbringing.

You are quite right, maybe your daughters couldn't have done that. But then again, they had a stereotyping parent who never challenged them. Nor could many other non 6ft4 guys have done that either.

ps your DS sounds like such a good lad, shame that can't be said about his parents.

QueenLaBeefah · 17/08/2017 09:29

No one is denying there are biological differences.

MrGHardy · 17/08/2017 09:30

I also find that surely by now if your boy wants to do ballet no one really cares. Ie maybe even if they did care you can still do it.

My boss's son has a male friend who did ballet. Until the day he wore his tutu(?) outside of ballet and was mercilessly bullied. He hasn't gone back to ballet.

Maybe just anecdotal, but I find that much more likely than simple acceptance as you propose is the case.

snef

But it's not about the choices she or he makes when grown up. It is how you treat them at a very early age. You ingrain stereotypes from such an early age. Your direct the interests of the children. The toys you give them affect brain development. The words you subconsciously use when speaking to little girls and little boys have an affect.

Undoubtedly you are right the sexes are different. But that doesn't mean we cannot try to minimize those (possibly damaging) differences.

DJBaggySmalls · 17/08/2017 09:32

Gendered parenting is policing language and behaviour. It contributes towards a society where men feel they cant ask for help and have a high suicide rate.

Thephoneywar · 17/08/2017 09:32

@orlantina

I don't think that you encourage girls self esteem and confidence by artificially enforcing language and thought on people. If you want children to be genderless drones that only confrom to your ideology then keep at it.

Datun · 17/08/2017 09:32

snef

I completely agree the biological differences should not be blurred. It's nonsense. Women are the ones who menstruate, get pregnant, gestate, give birth, breastfeed.

But that doesn't mean, that they are the only ones who can run a house, pick up the laundry, do the cooking...you get the picture.

It's not really about appearance, it's about roles. There are many ways of identifying and reinforcing those roles. One is, dress. It is only superficial, but nonetheless, it identifies a role, more than a preference. Hence little boys who love princess outfits, because they are sparkly, pink and appealing, but that's a bad thing. Because the role of a boy is indicated by rufty tufty jeans and sneakers.

When teenage girls want to wear cropped tops and tight skirts, they are indicating a role. They may not realise it, but they are. Their role is to be sexually alluring and decorative.

Nothing wrong in that, but reinforcing the idea that this is their only role, does the damage. There is a really, really fine line between this is a preference, something I like, and this is what I am for.

If the roles were sorted, the clothes wouldn't matter.

QueenLaBeefah · 17/08/2017 09:33

I know of a little boy who is just so agile that he would be utterly amazing at gymnastics. Shame his dad won't let him, because, you know ... "gay".

orlantina · 17/08/2017 09:34

I don't think that you encourage girls self esteem and confidence by artificially enforcing language and thought on people. If you want children to be genderless drones that only confrom to your ideology then keep at it

But at the same time, girl's self esteem is being damaged by the language, thoughts, books and messages in schools and society.

Are you ok with that?

JoNapot · 17/08/2017 09:34

I watched 5 minutes and turned off.

The BBC used to have interesting science programming.

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