No more girls and boys; can our children go gender free? BBC 2 tonight

[Ekphrasis]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202lp

I heard PM in radio 4 discussing this research, it seems to hugely benefit girls in terms of their views on their own achievements and the achievements of women in general.

Will listen with interest.

What surprised me (as we have had this language banned in my place of work, with children) is that the teacher, pre experiment, called girls sweetie and petal, and boys buddy etc.

It was a great programme. It seemed as though the children enjoyed it as well.

I found the point about brain training really interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. Now it seems so completely obvious that differences in achievement in various subjects can be explained largely by the push towards children doing different activities in their early years depending on gender.

It's depressing as well though - how can we overcome these issues when children are exposed to so many gender stereotypes? When I think back on my childhood, it was fairly gender neutral in some ways in my early years. Then the lack of confidence crept in, and it has taken me many years as an adult to become brave enough to ignore much of the stereotyping again.

Like Datun, I didn't watch this because I feared for my blood pressure.

I'll check it out on catch up.

I didn't watch this but think I'm going to on catch up. Just thinkng back to my primary school days, we wiukd get changed together in the classroom and did the same sports for PE but had seperate loos. I never noticed any pushing of gender roles at that age. Secondary school it was very different. I'm mid 30s btw. I also know that the same primary school now has e.g. Pirate and princess days, so something has definitely changed for the worse!

It was about height and physical strength lifting heavy fencing posts 8 feet high. It would be very few girls who could manage that.

Probably because your girls have had no practice at doing strong things. It is effect not cause.

I left civil engineering because of bollocks that you are spouting. I once went out to take about 10 clay samples which involved banging a metal ring the same size as a large can of soup, into the ground and digging it out filled with soil, and the client wouldn't let me do it! He took the rammer off me and did it all himself. I was about 23, strong, and that was my - you know - actual job.

I wonder if he'll address issues about violence, competitiveness, always wanting to win and aggressiveness with boys - and how that's also learned. That's such a massive issue - and it's ok to not always win and that you don't have to use violence to get your own way.

Hi hothead,

Do you mean negative comments here or elsewhere? I knew it was about unequal treatment from the outset, but maybe as I heard about the research as a 'trailer'.

Gender identify has not (so far) been mentioned, I doubt it will, and is really a logical next step conclusion that I doubt many will quite make unless they have some prior understanding. However, as you say, it's not really the point and what the programme achieves is fantastic and very important for girls and boys.

Amazing could be a part of this! I'd be interested to know if that teacher really spoke like that prior to the experiment?! I guess you all had to give permission too? Has it had the designed impact on the children?

The biggest and most serious thing for me was confidence and emotional intelligence; low self esteem for the girls and the explosive anger from the boys (one in particular) and the assumption by all that this is normal - these things are deeply ingrained by that age. And the association of looks with girls. Lipstick?!

He has touched on the boys being very competitive and that they had far more words to describe anger than love. He also mentioned that 95% of the prison population is male.

Just to add my own anecdata- when my boys started nursery at the age of 3 all of them (within a week) learnt that "boys don't cry". So disappointed as DH and I had tried so hard to move away from that type of guff.

Important to have books where girls save the day, but also important to have books where boys deal with friendship issues
We had a thread about this a little while ago and (while it was on preschool books about caring men and boys) the latter are like hens teeth.

He has touched on the boys being very competitive and that they had far more words to describe anger than love. He also mentioned that 95% of the prison population is male

I know he's touched on it. I wonder if there'll be any discussion about why and to see if that behaviour can also be changed.

^^this.

These last few posts are why this is so important.

I really hope this doesn't just sink and fade away.

I've noticed a thread in telly addicts where the poster doesn't totally 'get' it. I think the majority of people won't, I've tried talking to friends about this and they just don't get it, as in the bigger picture, how does this affect everyone?

I sounded like a loon pointing out that the pink and blue fairy doors in the woodland walk was a 'bit of an issue' as that was 'where the boy fairies lived and that was where the girl fairies lived' (to be fair, it wasn't the time or the place!)

Australia seem to have been making good head way, partly due to Steve Biddulph's work.

manup.org.au/tv-series/

Some of these books are good, not specifically about boys and feelings. There is a list somewhere but I think they did swing pro girl rather than boys and feelings.

selfsufficientkids.com/growth-mindset-childrens-books/

Planning to watch this on catch up - would it be suitable to watch with my 8 yr old DD? In our house we have tried our best to challenge gender stereotypes, but I know both DD and her older brother have struggled a bit at school as they don't 'fit' with other girls/boys.

Ekphrasis

I read Steve Biddulph when my son was born. However, I have since read on here that many feminists don't rate him, at all.

I'll read your link.

I thought it was an excellent programme last night. I stumbled across it and initially was very by the title but the themes in the programme were fascinating.
I actually think the teacher was pretty brave to allow them to film and critique him. I hope he felt it was worthwhile.
Re the books, yes it's only one small step in the right direction that the "princess" is now the hero but I have a 7yo girl who absolutely loves the Princess in Black series because she's the first "superhero" (her words) she's come across in books that's a girl.

We still have so far to go though. School is an important part of it but wider society has major issues with forcing stereotypes. The usual pink/blue toys etc that didn't exist years ago. And the clothes. I was in Mothercare a couple of weeks ago and they had a space & science range of clothes in the boys section. Nothing remotely comparable in the girls.
Then you go into m&s and try and find something fun and bright for a 5-6 boy and can only find mini versions of what their dads wear and all dark and drab.

Anyhow... I'm waffling. The programme was very interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing the end result.

Fine to watch with your child.

@rhinestonecowgirl yes I can't think of anything that would be inappropriate for an 8 year old to watch in it.

Good, DD heard them talking about it on the radio yesterday and was interested.

Looks like they go into the homes next week....

That will be interesting.

It would be interesting to see those children in the class who 'defied' the stereotypes and see the influences in their life.

The Twitter feed was interesting. Some people seemed very opposed to it.

My kids will be starting school soon. I really hope this nonsense agenda isn't enforced on my children.

Stop micro managing and policing every aspect of people's lives. It's so controlling and abusive.

I really hope this nonsense agenda isn't enforced on my children

What agenda would you like enforced on your children? The one that's been around for ages and has helped reinforced gender stereotypes - because that's worked so well

Gender stereotype debunking books:

http://spoilmyfamily.com/childrens-books-that-defy-gender-stereotypes/

Datun I didn't know about that; I know that the bit about boys getting a testosterone surge around age 4 has been debunked. Might be what they object to? Personally, I think that's when all this macho stuff has started to be ingrained which is what we see starting to be expressed.

Then you go into m&s and try and find something fun and bright for a 5-6 boy and can only find mini versions of what their dads wear and all dark and drab.
Yep been there too many times sadly. I was really upset by m and s when I first went there looking for toddler clothes.

I actually have wondered that I've tuned into a lot of this early on being the mother of a boy (from a family of all girls). As it's ok to be a girl and like / wear boys stuff, but not vice versa. I noticed it upset me but I didn't understand why till quite recently (c/o mn).

Stop micro managing and policing every aspect of people's lives. It's so controlling and abusive. - who? Advertisers, media and product designers do this beautifully.