No more girls and boys; can our children go gender free? BBC 2 tonight

[Ekphrasis]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202lp

I heard PM in radio 4 discussing this research, it seems to hugely benefit girls in terms of their views on their own achievements and the achievements of women in general.

Will listen with interest.

What surprised me (as we have had this language banned in my place of work, with children) is that the teacher, pre experiment, called girls sweetie and petal, and boys buddy etc.

I don't think it is, lily. Women aren't using their strength as an effect of conditioning in childhood. We're the same strength-wise up until puberty, but while puberty makes men stronger, it doesn't make women weak.

It's not about being the strongest, it's about being strong enough for a particular task. And as a pp said, no one stops pregnant women lifting their toddlers, when a non-pregnant woman isn't seen as capable of carrying a box that weighs less than a toddler.

Does being physically strong make you more confident?

Actually I think being strong can make kids feel confident. I hear girls say ' I can't do that' so many times in relation to gymnastics, football, climbing etc and that spills over into other things. They can't do it as they have never been encouraged to try. They haven't pushed themselves to see what they are capable of. They opt out for fear of failure...

It may do, Rita. Although it's likely that given an equal chance to work on strength, a lot of people would outstrip me easily - I'm 5'1".

I will have a go at most physical tasks, which makes me more self-reliant than people who are daunted by them. And I feel more confident when I know I'm in control and not waiting on anyone else.

Sometimes, though, I just think 'this is bloody hard, where is my cup of tea?'

Does being physically strong make you more confident?

Sort of......
It's about having belief in yourself, as with their girls in the program, they lacked the confidence in their ability, and shocked themselves at how strong they actually were. So the confidence could come from knowing they are capable of doing stuff, which previously they would stay away from even attempting.

I worked/helped out on farms and stables yards from 6 onwards. I am still physically strong and skilled, even after having years off doing physical jobs. When i have gone back to a physically demanding job I've pushed myself, whilst cursing being unfit, but after a day or 2 of aches and pains I am back up to speed.

I think I have muscle memory so although unused for a while it quickly comes back.

Also from doing physical things from a young age, you learn techniques for doing things, using the object weight and your balance.

I don't think I'm explaining this very well......

Ok an example, when moving heavy boxes/ sofas about a room, some people (men and women) would struggle to push /drag /lift up said item. But you can (and I have) moved them with one hand or if very lazy a push with a well placed knee. Or walked a large item that is way to big/heavy/ to carry.

I use to think everyone knew these techniques, Many do. But lots don't, and yes the majority have been women.

YY. I really feel that society's insistence on being the best all the time is missing the point that physical strength is about so much more than just winning.

Yes, Witch. I've had 2 delivery men huff and puff over how heavy a piece of furniture or an appliance is, and then moved it myself easily.

I've also had a bunch of men give up on moving a massive filing cabinet, and moved it alone, after tilting each side enough to shove a sheet under it, then hardly needed any strength to push it along.

Some techniques I needed to be taught, but others are just knacks I've discovered through trial and error. The biggest issue I have is being short - as longer arms really make moving bigger things easier, and I have to lift larger items higher on my body than a tall person, to keep them off the ground or away from my knees. When I was pregnant I found the main issue was having a bump where I'd usually be carrying something, so even a very light box was a pain because it was right in front of my face.

Basket
It is amazing what can be done, by using your brain plus strength.

But unfortunately at lot of it is learnt through practical trial and error. Which seeing the girls think so little of themselves at such a young age is awful, as they will never be confident in even giving something ago.

It reminds me of the martial art wing chun(I think) it was the one Bruce Lee learnt. The history of it is that it was developed my women out in the country in order to protect themselves from raiders and such.

The art was based on using your own balance to then use your opponent's strength against them. It was very effective so the technique was kept almost secret only being passed down through families. (Probably because once the men learnt it and understood it, the women would lose their advantage)

Witch Yes, it's a waste of talent individually, and also an inefficient way to run society if half of your population is taught they're crap at certain tasks and the other half at others.

I've personally found remembering that as a right shorty I have gravity on my side to be helpful. I've been in a couple of hairy situations travelling home late after work, and knowing that a man's size can be used to my advantage has been important.

Rita I really agree with you. I don't care that someone else could carry more than me and walk quicker while doing it, I just want to carry a load of compost home to do some gardening. I don't want to win a gold medal, I want to shift a wardrobe. I don't need to be the best, I just need to be able to give it a go, and know my limits.

I hope that something long term will happen too, in fact I think all connected with the show hope this happens.

Thank you all for your views, they are so interesting to read. A poster earlier asked about if it did have any positive impact on boys' being able to express their emotions....unfortunately you will have to wait until Wednesday to see if it has or not, can't go giving away spoilers now

Datun What this man is doing is a very good idea. He just needs to understand the reason why gender roles are there in the first place, though. But you would have to understand feminism to know that.
I'm sorry to admit that I'm unsure as to why gender roles are here in the first place. I'd very much like to understand feminism to know this - can you point me in the right direction please?

I listened to the discussion on WH this morning. It was very interesting - especially reactions to Steven......

Looking forward to Wednesday, Graham.

@grahamandre - do you thing that coming through a caring route to into teaching may have affected the way you relate to the children (ie the Sweetpea stuff )

thinK, that is ...

It may have done Terrylene I was a nanny first then became a Learning Support Assistant. I just wasn't aware of the impact my words would have and how they were a constant reminder to the children of their gender. I am so glad to have been involved in this project and to have gained this knowledge, hopefully it will influence other teachers and look at their own classroom environment and teaching.

@grahamandre I have to say it was pretty brave of you to put yourself out there in the firing line for this programme.

It must have been worse than an Ofsted

I was wondering because someone I lived with at uni did a degree in education and would wander round the house swearing at the reasons women were denied education (mostly to do with their womb shrivelling up) but never did go into teaching. She could be training people

KimLek

I'm the first to admit, I am not an academic feminist. But as soon as I understood the issue, I grasped it instantly.

Why are women considered second-class? Why are boy babies valued over girl babies? Why are 117 million girl babies aborted before they are born? Why honour killings? Why FGM? Always happening to girls, not boys.

When a baby is born and someone says it's a boy, or it's a girl, gender roles are instantly assigned. Consciously or not consciously.

Women are oppressed by their gender roles. They can't vote, they're too feeble minded. If they left their husband it was because they were hysterical and they were incarcerated. When they got married, not only did everything they own belong to their husband, the children also belonged to him should they split.

In the 60s, they were doing the same job as men and being paid less. Why? Because they're not worth it.

In the 90s sex on demand was a man's right. Why? Because that's a woman's role.

We've come an awful long way. But still, gender roles are assigned.

And although they disadvantage men, not as much as they disadvantage women.

Women are oppressed.

Gender roles are the means by which it is done.

Well said datun. Sadly I think much of this gets swept under the carpet, 'feminism' is 'scary'.

I read a thread play out in a local fb group for young mums. Some were denouncing feminism preferring being 'equal' (egalitarian?) to men; 'everyone should be equal.' It was clear they misunderstood the wider contexts. They felt that had it all sorted out and feminism was for the dark ages or lentil weavers or extremists. At the same time, I've seen these are the people who don't get the issue between gendered clothes etc, as we are all free to choose and can be free equally. Which is true but the thought processes go to a certain point and then stop.

Does being physically strong make you more confident?

I think so. I've been very weak due to illness for a long time, and also been at times very strong. I think capable is also a part if it. When I was strong (through a martial art) it was also being body confident, balance and agility, stamina etc. It's coming back to me at the moment and I feel so very glad.

I've loved watching Vikings for the way the women stand shoulder to shoulder with the men in battle. The one difference appears to be rape.

I do look forward to the next prog!

I think it's interesting about confidence coming from physical strength and fitness. Coming from a farming background and being sporty has reinforced that for me. I made sure PE was done properly as a primary teacher and was not a sideline.. Also boys played netball and girls played football in my lessons. machinery has made it easier for more women to be farmers etc. My over arm throwing is shite though!

Just caught up with this and found some things really astonishing

The teacher calling girls sweet pea and apparently having no idea he does it?!

People offering toys based on how the baby was dressed and also deciding how to handle the baby based on that?

The arrogance of some of the boys.

The worst thing was feeling we are going round in circles, a lot of what was being challenged was being challenged when I was a kid, then I think things improved but maybe I imagined that....of course certain toys develop spatial awareness.

I think the title is really unfortunate though. It was probably intended as provocative but I think for people quickly scanning what's on, many will reject it thinking its a different show than it is.

Thank you that makes a lot of sense. I've seen research previously around how people treat babies dressed in 'girl' clothes in contrast to how they treated babies dressed in 'boys' clothes. It's quite shocking how ingrained this behaviour is.

I've seen research previously around how people treat babies dressed in 'girl' clothes in contrast to how they treated babies dressed in 'boys' clothes. It's quite shocking how ingrained this behaviour is.

There is evidence to show is starts even before birth. Knowing gender from scans means gendered language is used from 20 weeks, even earlier sometimes.

A foetus kicking will be a little footballer if male, giving her mum trouble if female. Mothers will say they knew it was a boy because of how strongly they kick- they perceive boy kicks to be more forceful, when in reality there's no way to know. If it is male and doesn't kick much it's a "lazy" boy, if female it's because girls are better behaved.

People pick the stereotype amd match the behaviour.

Anyone watching it now?