Trans rights and consultation on legal gender - cold hard facts and sources please?

[mrsroboto]

I've been reading with interest the various trans threads going on, in reference to this news item (I know it's been a longrunning discussion) Consultation on changing legal gender to be launched

There's been a lot of chat and theorising and I admit I had previously assumed it was the same as all the American hysteria over women with big hands using ladies' bathrooms. HOWEVER, obviously there's a lot more worrying things being implied. (I'm aware that people are worried about female-only safe spaces and medical definitions of male/female).

I'm not familiar with TRAs or their arguments so please can someone clearly answer some of my questions for me, with links to sources rather than generalising where possible? (I ask this respectfully as I know there is a lot of anger and disbelief and infighting which are making threads hard to follow, and I'd like to provide links for others - plus I tend not to believe stuff people write on the internet if there isn't a credible source - my STEM background).

1. From the news article, it looks like they want to remove the 'gender dysphoria' requirement for the 'Gender Recognition Panel' to allow someone to be recognised as the other gender. The 'gender dysphoria' definition in the DSM-5 looks fairly 'open' in that I would have thought most trans people would easily meet (things like 'A strong desire to be of the other gender'). The new requirement would be "a simple administrative process".

What is the trans argument for not even wanting to meet the gender dysphoria diagnosis? (Please don't just answer 'misogyny' - I'm trying to understand if there's supposed to be a reason - too difficult to diagnose? Symptoms that aren't listed in the DSM?)

1. What is the simple administrative process? Has this actually been proposed yet? (Ppl assuming one can just sign a piece of paper) Can you change back and forth regularly?

1. is there anyone who genuinely benefits from this? Are there distinct groups of trans people, such as 'genuine' gender dysmorphia people vs men who want to access women's prisons etc? what about in-between?

1. is there a question about lowering the age for physical transition? I'm aware of people claiming that children as young as 9 are starting to transition with drugs etc - any sources? I find this crazy.

As I said, I've read other threads with lots of good points about the implications so am familiar with a lot of the arguments but less familiar with actual facts, legislation, sources that might give an idea as to what could happen. Hoping a wise MNer or two can help but not wanting it to become a pile-on. AND apologies for not being up to speed yet.

Slightly answering my own question by reading the Govt proposals although they are still vague:
"The current need to be assessed and diagnosed by clinicians is seen as an intrusive requirement by the trans community".

"It will aim to relieve the bureaucratic and medical burdens for those who choose to change their gender."

So the 'medicalisation' is seen as wrong by the trans community? Why?

I think a lot of the problem is the non binary or cross dressing types. They are the ones who don't think it should be medicalised or regulated in any way. But they are considered "trans".

Catching up with some other threads, flugelpip has mentioned there is no accepted definition of trans - you can be trans without changing any aspect of your physical presentation, as far as I can see from watching activists' videos on youtube. Someone who was born male can wear a full beard and declare themselves female, whether they are wearing stereotypically female clothes or not. And that, believe it or not, I understand that as their right - I'm not interested in whether there has been surgery, or hormonal treatment, or if someone is starting on their transformation and not yet being formally treated. I am emphatically not anti-trans. I am against the naivety that the trans community insist on showing in believing that men won't abuse the privileges that they're fighting for.'

Is this the heart of it?

(sorry that first paragraph was a quote from flugelpip's post.)

Why are men abusing the privileges any less "trans" than anyone else? That's the question.

well as I understand it even if I don't ID as trans right now, I could at any point in the future (just as I'm not yet disabled, but could become disabled) - who knows, particularly as there's no accepted definition of trans? Legal proposals tend to need definitions....

Yes, that's my point, no clear criteria have been proposed because under a self ID system these would be redundant.

Yes, it seems that way (you mean clear criteria for a definition of 'trans'?). So who is pushing for this change and why? Do they see the massive 'loophole' for what it is?

Please don't just answer 'misogyny'

Sorry OP. This is the only answer. This is the middle and both ends of the whole thing: hatred of women. Once you accept that, all your questions are answered.

From what I've determined, they don't like the medical gatekeeping and they resent having to pay the fee. They would also like protection for people if they don't pay or see a doctor. Non binary/genderqueer types don't currently have legal protection as they don't "transition" at all generally.

That doesn't really inform me. I'm trying to understand what arguments there are, where they have come from. I'm sure they didn't ask Justine Greening that they thought the law wasn't misogynistic enough so could she make them worse please. As I've already posted there is a reference to the current process being 'too intrusive' or medicalised, so I was hoping for more information on that.

But yes, a total lack of empathy for women and disregard for women's rights is a big part of it, as much in the transgender community as in the public organisations and government agencies involved.

venusinscorpio sorry cross-post! Thanks for taking the time to engage.

I've briefly looked into the Danielle Muscato example, argument is essentially that s/he's 'not physically ready' to transition. Which, I don't know, I theoretically have sympathy for, but then you're essentially asking to massively and dangerously change the law just so you can pre-empt your transition.

Mrs Roboto. What I said was perfectly informative I think. They don't want medical involvement at all. Use your imagination.

Sorry, cross post there :)

That doesn't really inform me. I'm trying to understand what arguments there are, where they have come from

I think that is directed at me. You are making the classic mistake of trying to be reasonable and rational - trying to understand. You can't fight this shit with reason - especially not if you're a woman.

Once you realise that the whole trans agenda is yet another manifestation of hatred and fear of women, the whole thing clicks into place - you understand 'where it comes from' and 'what the arguments are'. You see that erasure of women's rights, and then erasure of women is the end game.

Don't waste time trying to play nice - get out there and fight.

mrsroboto

I'm going to have to dip in and out because of real life. But I will answer your questions and I will cite sources.

1. Not wanting to meet the criteria of gender dysphoria.

Most genuine people with gender dysphoria want it acknowledged, and want it alleviated. Presenting as the opposite sex does this.

Men with autogynephilia are far less likely to have gender dysphoria. They have a fetish which manifests as a yearning to be the opposite sex. See cissification, female embodiment fantasy, cross dressers, cross dreamers, target location error. The fantasy does not preclude surgery. Although most of the retain their genitalia and boast about their penises.

AGP is enhanced and augmented by making people refer to you as the opposite sex. That is part of the arousal. Despite looking like man, a six foot four hod carrier.
It relies on the view that women are victims. Humiliation is part of the fantasy. So, gangbanging, being picked up by strangers, helpless submission and weakness. Hyper sexualised clothing is preferred.

Its existence is denied by transactivists because it undermines the ideology. They form the bulk of transactivists.

If you google it you will find reams and reams of men talking about their own autogynephilia (AGP).

transgenderreality.com/tag/autogynephilia/

gendertrender.wordpress.com/?s=Autogynephilia+&submit=Search

1. The administrative process. This has not been published. But it is immaterial. Once self identifying goes ahead, someone will just be able to say it on the day because no one can question it. Culturally it will have been accepted.

1. Is there anyone who genuinely benefits

Genine transsexuals who suffer from gender dysphoria would be the group who one would think would be most advantaged. However, most of them, being androphillic, are not interested in this legislation. They want to remain below the radar. There is a transwoman on one of the threads at the moment who is aghast this proposal. Also see Miranda Yardley, Helen Highwater and several Youtubers. They have no reason to want to enter women's spaces, they are not interested in women, they are not desperate for validation by force. They are known as Truscum by transactivists because of their refusal to join them and their credentials for being genuine. They are often ostracised by the transactivist community. To women, they appear like effeminate gay men who are harmless.

1. lowering the age of transition. I too think this is wrong. I believe it is encouraged by older transactivists who desperately wish they could pass.

Transgender reality was set up for parents of trans-kids. It shows the social contagion and the encouragement that children receive online.

transgenderreality.com/tag/parents/

On mumsnet we have had many, many parents of trans children who have confided their stories. Without exception they have said there is absolutely no treatment other than medical transition. They are left high and dry without therapy, without counselling. They've had to pay privately.

Mermaids is a support group for such parents. All these parents were told that unless they allowed
their children to medically transition they would commit suicide. 'Better a trans kid, than a dead kid'.
Mermaids have criminally misrepresented the figures.

The head of Mermaids, Susie Green took her son to Thailand, (I believe), when he was underage to have surgery.

In a recent court case about a mother who was attempting to transition her son, Mermaids were forbidden further contact with the child, by the judge. Mermaids accused the judge of being ignorant and out of date, despite him being the foremost judge in the UK on transgender issues and having penned the forward to a book about same-sex families.

They will appear reasonable, but when you drill down and talk to ex members, they are not.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/mermaids-tg-lying-unprofessional/amp

Fair play for women, gendergender, and transgender reality are good resources. You can type words in the search box and they will bring up articles and references.

Once you start to Google, dots get joined at an alarming rate. Behaviour and reactions become wholly predictable. See
trans widows. And detransitioners.

I've rushed this, but feel free to PM me.

Maria Miller MP is chair of the parliamentary Women and Equalities Committee.
www.parliament.uk/womenandequalities

This is the report they produced including the names of people they interviewed;
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf

They interviewed Womens Aid and Rape Crisis, and dismissed them.
Both Womens Aid and Rape Crisis know from decades of hands on experience that you cannot mix male and females in trauma therapy and recovery.
A man in a trauma therapy group changes the dynamic of the group.

Maria Miller makes it clear she does not believe there is any situation in which women should not accept self declared male to trans.
Thats any hospital ward, rape crisis centre, bathroom, domestic violence shelter, sports, anywhere you would reasonably expect a sex segregated space.
Trans people object to women having this right (P 31)

Mr Morton from the Scottish Transgender Alliance states that women who object to the presence of male born person, with or without a penis should to be reeducated. (P 29)

Instead of a gender certificate, you would download a form from the internet. Politicians trust men not to abuse this system.

Thank you all and particularly to the link to the cross-gender equalities report which I shall read asap.
I am just having trouble working out 'fact' from 'fiction' because the 'fact' seems so fantastical.

datun so some are pressing to have more medicalisation (ie physical transition)? Does this group welcome this potential "self-administered" change or are they dead set on transitioning kids?

Sorry, Maria Miller was the previous Chair, she has been replaced. New minister for equalities is Justine Greening said 'she wanted to cut the stigma faced by transpeople' and is favour of Gender Self ID.
IDK why women are in the title at all.

To be fair, wrt point 1, posters on here have said the current requirement to "live as a woman" for two years prior to GRC is nonsensical because what does "living as a woman" mean. I actually think the current GRC process does need an overhaul but self ID isn't the answer.
For point 4, the BBC recently made a documentary called "Transgender Children: who knows best?" Which you might find interesting if you can find it on YouTube.
For point 3, this youtube link might help

archive.org/details/BBC-trans-kids

mrsroboto

datun so some are pressing to have more medicalisation (ie physical transition)? Does this group welcome this potential "self-administered" change or are they dead set on transitioning kids?

This is worth the two faces of trans conflict and logic disappears out the window.

AGP, taken to its end will often result in a desire for surgery (it's the ultimate fantasy, actually being able to sexually function as a woman). However, historically having AGP was not considered the correct reason for medical transition.

Thus it was denied. And those persons were not considered legitimately transsexual. Both because they had not had surgery but also as a cross dressing fetish was not deemed to have the same 'respectable' basis for being trans.

Since the gender recognition act, transgenderism has gained more of a respectable reputation. Especially as they were determined to align themselves with the LGB community. Many people who support LGB, automatically support trans because they think it's the same. It's not. One is gender identity, the other is sexual orientation. Many people in the LGB community want to drop the T. Especially as the ideology actively erases sexual orientation and deems it a choice, rather than an orientation. (It's transphobic for a lesbian not to consider a bepenised transwoman as a sexual partner).

So originally AGP people were not considered trans unless they could medically transition. So they wanted to both remove the gatekeeping for medical transition at the same time still be considered trans without transitioning.

For those who want to medically transition, i.e. those with severe gender dysphoria and trans-women who will go the whole hog in terms of their fantasy, medical transition needed to be available on the NHS, hence the requirement for some sort of diagnosis. Remember that medical transition does not have to be surgery, it can just be hormones. This is the goal for many.

Self identification with no diagnosis will only really serve people with very mild dysphoria, and those with AGP who have no dysphoria. Unless they can still get hormones on the NHS

The latter group make up the bulk of transactivists. It is being driven by them.

They can't really have it both ways. They don't want to be considered mentally ill, because they are after women's civil rights, but they needed a diagnosis to medically transition.

They used to need a diagnosis to be considered trans. They no longer need that.

Very few men have genital surgery. Only 20%. But the medical transition includes hormones, facial surgery, breast implants, etc.

That Is the surgery that many of them still want.

I can't understand how self identification will actually help those who want hormones and facial surgery and breast implants. I can see the NHS denying it to them unless there is some kind of medical diagnosis. There must be some kind of agreement that a diagnosis is not necessary for surgery or hormones.

Perhaps someone else can help with that because I feel like I must be missing something.

There is a lot of info, facts and data on the Gender Critical Reference thread and on the Gender Critical Wiki which came about from the Gender Critical Manifesto thread.

Are you a woman or a ciswoman?