How women talk is not the reason for sexism

[AskBasil]

This is a really good article:

Asking women to modify their speech is just another way we are asked to internalize and compensate for sexist bias in the world.

Very interesting. I tend to apologise for all my thoughts.

That's a really good article, basil.

It's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately - that the burden of change is always laid at women's door. If men won't listen, women have to talk differently. We're told to think about what we're doing wrong and how we can modify ourselves, lean in, emulate what men are doing (which must be "correct", mustn't it?). The author is correct - it's just another way to tell women to shut up.

I really like the way she points out the bait-and-switch, that we're always told on one hand that women are natural communicators, and then on the other hand that, of course, what we say isn't really important or authoritative.

My director has banned me from saying sorry. Other managers now think I'm aggressive...

(All men, of course.)

I have a trick where I take up subtlety more space. I have realized that if I spread out a bit (arms on the back of chairs, leaning over a bit, papers spread out) I am listened to more, especially by men. It was very marked at a meeting recently where I was sat next to a very vocal man. I edged into his space. By the end of the meeting he had suggested the organizers met up with my after the conference because I was clearly an expert. I know people think I'm aggressive.

I am trying really really hard not to say sorry (or even things like "I think") when I speak or write. It's really hard, though! I didn't realise that the habit was so deeply ingrained until I tried to change

I was taught once to always use the word "consider" rather than "feel" as it looks more measured. " I consider that this man is talking bollocks" for instance.

Yes absolutely.

I also no longer move out of the way when a man comes towards me. I used to, all the time. Now there is sometimes a look of surprise. But most men just move

That's an excellent article. Am very taken with the idea that women talking differently from men might be that we are achieving something else with our speech. What with us being better communicators and all that.

Ebearhug - what a way to undermine someone!

Good article- thanks!

Ebearhug - what a way to undermine someone!

Oh, they have plenty of form. One of my annual reviews, I was actually blowing my own horn (because men always do, and women don't,) and pointing out how well I'd done on something, and I got back, "well, it wasn't just you, was, it," and in its case, it was!

There's no sexism, though. My manager says so....

I was walking down the corridor the other day, and a colleague was walking towards me - I decided I wasn't moving out of the way, and it was a colleague I could riskn this with. We stopped just in front of each other - he'd put his arms out. "I thought you were going to hug me!" he said. (Yeah, in your dreams, but I am not even starting that conversation.)
"No, I just didn't see why I should be the one to move out of the way, so I didn't."

I don't think he quite understood what was going on. (Also, inside my head, a voice was going, "why is he walking on that side anyway? We were taught to walk on the left at school, like driving." So I felt totally in the right, by walking on the left...)

Fortunately I don't have to deal with board meetings and suchlike, but I have been criticised for saying modifying what I say with "I think". But, to my mind, it takes a lot of arrogance to remove that "I think" thus claiming that your thought is a fact. Just because men often seem to think that it must be true if they thought it, there is no reason to imitate them.

I find that if I dont use the softly softly language, people read me as aggressive, or even mean. When male colleagues use the same words and tone of voice it's neutral or friendly and assertive.

I can't win because I either give in to the language expectations or don't get anything done. And I care about the work, so usually opt to get things done.

If you're interested in this topic I heartly recommend Deborah Cameron's blog (mentioned here):

debuk.wordpress.com

And her very readable book: The Myth of Mars and Venus

I really like "I consider..."

Much better than "I feel"

I've seen advice saying make it a statement. No, "I think..." or "I consider...", simply, "What he's saying is bollocks. We should be doing this."

I really want to figure out a way to deliver workplace training courses that would actually challenge sexism by changing men's behaviour. That blog has reminded me of an idea for it that I had a while back.

I do find it interesting that it's seen as absolutely fine to send women on courses to stop us "holding ourselves back" but you'd be laughed out of the room if you suggested courses for men to stop all of the things men do that contribute to holding women back.

How to give constructive feedback to women
How to stop interrupting
How to react when a woman is being assertive
How to overcome your unconcious sexist biases
She's not there to make your coffee or take notes

There must be a way to do it! Can you imagine the results?! What a world that would be

In previous workplace settings the male bias has been a running joke. I had an agreement with a male colleague who would express my opinion verbatim after it was shot down by our boss. We got a lot done.

PoochSmooch

I've just said this on another thread. A girlfriend of mine does run courses to help men communicate better with women in business.

She encourages a less adversarial and a more collaborative approach. Collaboration is a key thing that she pushes.

From what I can remember, she said that it is received quite well.

She is a very successful woman in her own right. I'm not sure if she bills herself as a feminist, though. Despite living, what looks like a feminist life, if you see what I mean.

Understanding the analysis applied to how men and women interact is key, my opinion.

Telling men about the studies which show they feel a woman dominates if she talks for just less than half the time, for instance.

Male privilege, by its definition, means they don't know it's going on.

Next time I see her, I'm going to ask her if the content of her course is based on a gut feel, or a feminist analysis.

It's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately - that the burden of change is always laid at women's door. If men won't listen, women have to talk differently. We're told to think about what we're doing wrong and how we can modify ourselves, lean in, emulate what men are doing (which must be "correct", mustn't it?). The author is correct - it's just another way to tell women to shut up.

The problem is women have to be the ones to change because it's still men who have the power. If there was an effective way of challenging the unconscious bias towards women (and stopping racism whilst we're at it) then it would be perfect but so far no-one's figured out how to do it.

So instead we have individual women and BME people who have to assimilate enough to be accepted without being seen as threatening who occasionally succeed. But usually if we adopt the traits we're told will make us successful we're perceived as aggressive (just look at how many people see FWR as "angry" because of our phrasing)

That's interesting that it actually happens, datun. Interesting and good! I'd be interested in what she says if you get a chance to talk about it.

The problem is women have to be the ones to change because it's still men who have the power

I know, oneflew, but when women change to try to emulate men, or the perceived "men's way of doing things", I think it makes things worse, not better. So many businesses are all making noises about how they have to be diverse to succeed these days, and to me it just seems completely obvious that one way would be to make men communicate more like women and not the other way round!