It's always about the toys...

[Barcoo2]

Every single article I've read about a child being transed, whether it's in the Daily Mail or a more reputable source, or a mummy blog or whatever, has mentioned that they preferred 'girly' toys or rejected 'girly' toys. Girly toys are always dolls and princesses. Boyish toys are not mentioned as distinctly. Usually girls who want to be boys are framed in terms of their rejection of the girly toys.

So is it all about the toys? My three year old has made enough throw away comments ('I want to be a boy knight', sticking a macaroni in her labia and boasting about a willy) and has had enough interests in pirates, dinosaurs etc for me to trans her if I was so inclined.

Does anyone have any articles or links that don't mention toys AT ALL? I'd really appreciate it if you had any...I'm just finding the whole thing so clear cut in that EVERY CASE I've read is about a rejection of social constructions of gender, guided by the parents, rather than an innate femininity that represents what real females feel or whatever.

I was with you on there being no innate gender, but how can sexual orientation be 'chosen'? Surely that implies that gay men and women could simply 'choose' to be straight? I'm not sure I ever made a decision to like men and women... I'm a bit confused now?

SomeDyke has posted about this before.

I never made a decision to be sexually attracted to men and not be sexaually attracted to women.

SomeDyke has said on other threads that straight womenI have a bit of a case of head in the sand , even arrogant ,about not thinking why they are straight. I am not sure why straight women should be quizzed about why they are straight. I would not dream of asking a lesbian the think about why she is a lesbian.

SomeDyke may have a vested interest, or may be seeing it from, what she may consider, an enlightened view .

I agree it goes against the current narrative of homosexuality being innate. But there is a theory. Hopefully someone, who is not as tired as me, may shed light on it.

That's great news, Fish how wonderful! Well done, you sound like an amazing mother.

Fish, we haven't "spoken" before but I've followed your posts on here and I am so, so pleased for you and your family - this is such great news. I know you've been through an awful lot and it's wonderful that things seem to be turning round now.

Hats off to you for having the courage to question the dominant ideology around all this when you have so much skin in the game, and hats off also to the women who've been such a great support to you on here. Yay!!

I don't normally post in this topic - but was interested by this.

With DSD and DS we had colour "neutral" bedrooms and toys.

Regardless, DSD went through an all things "pink" stage. Ironically as a goth teen she'd hate all that now.

DS generally was not into toys at all - apart from LEGO. He's still the same - it's just Minecraft now.

Both were encouraged to choose their own clothes and style.

Upshot is I'm not convinced by any rhetoric about toys and social conditioning.

I do think that some parents are far too quick to see a child in a tutu and proclaim and facilitate gender dysmorphia.

Equally I understand that some children genuinely feel trapped in the wrong sex.

I don't for a second think the toys you play with as a child has any impact either way.

Exactly EatsShitsAndLeaves I don't think that toys have any impact on how a child feels about their sex unless a parent implies it does to their children.

I agree, I do think parents place far too much emphasis on clothes being your IDENTITY from birth onwards. Obviously this is fuelled by capitalism. I don't think clothes need to confer a child's identity or preferences until they're teenagers. I prefer to see clothes (for children) as simply utilitarian objects. I've become quite Maoist in this respect. My children each season have six plain tops in a single colour, six trousers, shorts etc, and they just wear them. All knickers are the same colour without a pattern. All socks are the same colour. There is only one pair of shoes per season. Consequently there's no nonsense in this household about 'I'll only wear my dinosaur top waaa'. I am lucky that I can do this, because I sew. Disclaimer: they do have other clothes, usually gifted or acquired by me second hand but that's the core day to day wardrobe. When I say get dressed to my three year old, she just pops off and puts on her Maoist uniform usually, without comment. When she actually shows interest in clothes her peers are wearing I'm happy to go along with whatever she wants.

So let's talk about George Kirrin. Did she have dysphoria? Or was it all about the toyz for her? I've had a quick check and yes she is being claimed as a transman on Tumblr: "I think she is more trans than a tomboy", goes one poster.

In my opinion George's objection to being a girl is completely and absolutely rooted in society's treatment of girls. She saw the freedom and opportunities that boys had and she wanted that for herself. Her solution was to think of herself as someone who is just as capable as a boy. She wanted to be seen as a boy so society/people didn't make assumptions about her interests or capabilities, rather than being seen as a boy because she was biologically one inside.

What do you reckon?

Barcoo2

That's fascinating, the way you dress your children. Did you decide to do that for practical reasons?

I loved George Kirrin.

I think your analysis is completely right. Anne was portrayed as ladylike and always in need of rescue (if I remember correctly). George was a great foil.

Although George being fierce and not always getting it right used to annoy me. She wasn't the hero. Irritating.

I thought she had been claimed as a lesbian. Trans now?

Because all the lesbians have been told they're actually transmen I expect.

Because all the lesbians have been told they're actually transmen I expect.

Yup.

I'd like to claim George as a TERF! Clearly she is like so many radfems' childhoods. We should use her face as a mascot

Thanks everyone. There have been a few times that my child has been so upset I've very nearly agreed to blockers, and many a night I've sat in tears because I felt like I was torturing my poor child. I also think if my child does transition in future I may well regret the choices I've made but thankfully, for now, it seems to be paying off. I certainly don't feel like a good mum, but I would absolutely support my child regardless of which path they take, although I will always hope they become accepting of themselves without invasive treatments and surgery.

I am aware of Jazz Jennings datun I can't express how terrifying this all is. Kids aren't making informed choices because it's transphobic to inform them properly of all the consequences

It's not "transphobic" at all. And your DC's health and future fertility are far more important than pandering to an often unreasonable and misogynist trans lobby.

The lobby drives a wedge between children and their parents. Divide and conquer tactics.

Datun with the clothes it's because I'm a bit lazy (can't be fucked buying lots of little lengths of coloured cloth) hence I just go with one colour per child. I don't dress them in the same colours, no twinning here. I have a general rule of no prints, no slogans, no logos, no applique. Woollen jumpers are varied though so they're not always in the same outfit, likewise I make a fair amount of frocks. Children look better whrn their clothes are just fading into the background, it lets their faces and personality speak for themselves. I've found when my daughter is in a frock (i like traditional liberty florals, again because it's a plain style) people comment on the pink flowers to her
I remember being told that the way you toilet train is by buying peppa pig knickers no thanks. Knickers are just utilitarian items here. I'm sure I'll be told to put the boy in thomas the fucking train knickers when he's bigger

Disclaimer: the children have a million toys and books. I'm only an aesthete around clothes.

That's the way it should be dozer but trying to find a counsellor that deals with 'gender identity' and isnt encouraging and is willing to discuss the negatives is really difficult.

It seems not being perceived to be transphobic is more important than the welfare of thousands of children.

fish, I'm really glad that your child is getting some support. That is great news for you and your family

Fish

Kinda like how it's more important to many people not to be perceived as racists, than analysing how women are thought of/treated in the East, specifically within Islam (which leads to calls of Islamphobia).

Criticism of ideologies and religions is healthy if done for reasons of morality and liberation etc. Imo anyway, some may disagree on here, I'm not sure what the general consensus is on what I just said here.

Mariposa I agree with you. Cultural relatavism used to defend the subjugation of women can go and get fucked.

I don't see women's liberation as Western decadence but as an expression of universal modernity. Women in the west used to have to cover their hair and ankles etc. If i say I don't like a headscarf for modesty's sake I am not just criticising patriarchal elements of Islam, I am criticising MY culture as it was. (I'm anglo)

I'm well impressed by this Maoist style for young kids' clothes. There should be more of it.

Sometimes I wonder if society's recent insistence on branding children with their cultural and personal preferences via their clothes is contributing to this gender identity epidemic (by that I mean the 55 genders). It becomes important to toddlers that other people know their identity, prrsonality, that it's reflected on their clothes. God knows you hear from enough mothers how X will only wear his Thomas jumper or Y is attached to his superhero tshirt, or Z wants to wear the Frozen dress every day. It makes clothing very, very important to children in a way it never used to be, except perhaps on special occasions in a new suit or some such.

My kids have inherited a lack of bother about clothes from me - so whilst they don't have a hand sewn wardrobe (although they do have a fair bit of hand knitted, because I can do that in front of the TV, and needles are less interesting to them than my sewing machine!), they both just wear what they've been issued that morning which is just jeans/joggers/shorts and long/short-sleeved t-shirt and some kind of jumper.

I agree that it's way more simple that way, and I'm glad none of them have ever been obsessed with items of clothing (or particular toys actually.. they're just very chill in general about stuff)

Marisopia I watched a video yesterday that expressed pretty much the same message as your post.

I'll link it if you're interested.

I'm not too sure about a few bits of it, but a lot of it resonates with what my dc and I have been through.

Fish Brilliant, I've seen it on Facebook before. Shared it straight away.

Makes a bit of a mockery of affirmative action, however many sjw-types are making a mockery of it already!

Erm, that video is horrendous.

This infuriates me about , argh... don't even know what to call them, but SJW's I guess who seem to just pick a cause and run with it, no critical thinking, and they still discriminate against others if that particular "ism" isn't socially desirable enough, or something... I mean, being labelled mentally ill and female should give me a bunch of privilege points, but funnily enough these people don't defer to me in conversation and fight for my rights. Whereas other causes would have them champing at the bit and sharpening their pitchforks.

Anway, these fools (who often appear to be in it to satisfy a desire for tribal warfare rather than a considered and coherant worldview) make a mockery of fighting for equality, as we can see with the bonkers trans ideology. Then it's so easy for others to take the piss and dismiss it all as nonsense. As this video shows - they are equating male priviledge with "not having BO priviledge" FGS!!

Like, they guy in video when they're totting up priviledge points... he's listing stuff like "BO" FGS! In real like he would be "discriminated" against, and no-one would give a fuck!

I'm not sure I explained that very well . I just have met quite a few of these people and they don't care.