It's always about the toys...

[Barcoo2]

Every single article I've read about a child being transed, whether it's in the Daily Mail or a more reputable source, or a mummy blog or whatever, has mentioned that they preferred 'girly' toys or rejected 'girly' toys. Girly toys are always dolls and princesses. Boyish toys are not mentioned as distinctly. Usually girls who want to be boys are framed in terms of their rejection of the girly toys.

So is it all about the toys? My three year old has made enough throw away comments ('I want to be a boy knight', sticking a macaroni in her labia and boasting about a willy) and has had enough interests in pirates, dinosaurs etc for me to trans her if I was so inclined.

Does anyone have any articles or links that don't mention toys AT ALL? I'd really appreciate it if you had any...I'm just finding the whole thing so clear cut in that EVERY CASE I've read is about a rejection of social constructions of gender, guided by the parents, rather than an innate femininity that represents what real females feel or whatever.

There are things so fundamental to being male or female that none of us have managed to describe what it is.

I can describe the fundamental thing to being female that applies to me. It's having a vagina.

If I had a penis, I'd be male.

How would I feel if I woke up a man tomorrow?

Datum, I've thought about this my whole life - and occasionally fervently wished for it.

If it happened now I would be at a distinct disadvantage - someone with a male body who had been raised female, with all that this means - making yourself smaller, putting other people first, and all the rest of it. But I'd still be male.

Datum I had no idea there had been profiling of tran kids and their parents!

I suppose the definition of a 'woman' is an adult female, just as 'girl' is an immature female. Therefore, they are one in the same concept-wise. Purely based on semantics a male could never be a woman. It's the same as calling a female horse a 'mare' and a male a 'stallion', right?

Therefore the term 'woman' is purely a descriptor of your sex + your age, connoting nothing about what a woman is like in terms of feelings or roles, but merely on biology.

The 'feminine' concept that is now associated with 'female/woman' is what describes the feelings/roles, and that's socially constructed.

Therefore, when a man says they 'feel like a woman', as the term woman says nothing about feelings or roles and only speaks of sex/age, they are really saying 'I like feminine things'... Which is fine, but that doesn't mean you aren't a man.

Now I see why such the fuss about 'gender identity'. It really does just enforce stereotypes. Hmmmm

(Slow clap for me... sorry for being a bit ignorant).

MariposaNieve

Exactly. Believe me, any conversation with the transactivist will be a mindfuck of mammoth proportions. You just have to keep in your head what you know to be true, what you know material reality is, and not get sidetracked.

It is an awful lot easier if you look through a feminist filter. If you deliberately view them as men and wonder what they're up to.

Because it becomes clear time, after time, after time.

They will complain that you are being misogynistic towards them (because they're women). And then spew a lot of rape threats, horribly gendered language and violent abuse! And simply not see the irony.

Your more genuine transsexual won't do that.

But, you can still feel their male upbringing. I don't think there are many men, trans or otherwise, who have have any real clue about the female experience. They don't really get it. And it comes across.

Even if they did a PhD in it, they would still walk out of the University door and quite happily get in an unlicensed taxi.

I think the overwhelming desire to play with girl s toys is a handy narrative that ticks a lot of boxes for MTT. It proves that wanting to be female has been with them since childhood, and isn't a midlife crises or a kink. Together with the "I was stopped/beaten/laughed at" speech it paints a picture of a traumatic childhood. It also reinforces gender roles and stereotypes, without which trans couldn't exist.

With growing awarenesses of trans issues, and, more importantly, the false suicide stats that are quoted, I don't blame parents for seeking medical help. I'd rather pretend my child was the opposite sex than have an unhappy or dead child.

I just don't understand how and why its become a thing. Why is there story after story in the media about trans children? All positive, all showing how much of a girl X is now he can have pink hair and do cartwheels?

MariposaNieve

Yes, that's right. The female is simply one half of the sexes. Like a female tiger, or female dog. Woman is the human version of that, like tigress, bitch (!).

Feminine and femininity is what people would stereotypically attach to women. It's not innate. It's preferences and a role.

You could name any feminine trait and I could find you umpteen women who don't have it. It's not inbuilt.

The only thing that is inbuilt is our biology. That's it.

"There are things so fundamental to being male or female that none of us have managed to describe what it is."

For so much of human history it was assumed that men and women were fundamentally different in the head. Given the social construction of gender (or at least gender roles), and their variability across cultures and across time, and given societies seeming obsession with making men and women as disparate as possible in areas beyond where the actual biological differences operate, we must surely remain extremely sceptical about labelling anything as innate. Especially things we can't define..........

Given society, it is no wonder that it is a common belief that there must be something fundamental to being male or female, other than being raised in a male or female body and noticing that you pee differently. Supposedly before the social conditioning sets in. Except we also know that such conditioning sets in straight away, that people just do treat babies they perceive as male or female differently.

So, what remains as the supposed evidence for innate gender identity? Indeed, I have been told that innate gender identity must exist because trans people do. Which closely follows the "sexual orientation must be innate because gay people exist and they're not sick" line. Which is more to so with politeness than actual science! And then gets even murkier when bi-gender and gender fluidity come in as well..........

I'm a lesbian, and I reject the 'innate sexual orientation" argument because socially, my responses is, 'what is wrong with being lesbian even if I did chose it?' -- because being straight or gay or lesbian or bisexual doesn't actually require anything much more than treat all adult humans as reasonable adult humans, whoever they happen to want to have relationships with.

As regards gender identity then, perhaps rather than being an answer or explanation for the occurrence of trans people, we might ask why should we care what gender someone is (or none)? What if we got rid of gender? Okay, sex is always going to matter in some areas, like who gets pregnant, and who bleeds, and who you should compete against in cross-country races. But perhaps the issue of trans people has only arisen because society cares so much about gender? If we got rid of that, then we would perhaps be left with sex dysphoria etc, and people who just had issues with their physically sexed bodies. And then we would have to look at whether or not surgery and/or hormones were effective to help alleviate such dysphoria, or whether people should be allowed such surgery just cos they want it. But whilst also acknowledging that physical sex cannot be altered however much some people may wish it could be. Then we are left with various reasons for people wanting physical intervention, and hopefully treating those range of reasons in a range of ways. But believing in innate gender identity both causes the problem in some sense, and also prevents a flexible and effective response to those who need it. Shoving it all under the 'innate gender' umbrella doesn't help, and actually that paradigm is already creaking given the multiplicity of genders already arising. If gender is a spectrum, after all, and presumably multi-dimensional if not totally warped (in the maths sense), then how does it become innate (if so fluid), or distinguishable from 'human personality'???

And I keep coming back to the Monty Python line -- 'where's the fetus going to gestate, in a box?' and the fact that it's no ones fault, not even the romans.........................

The bloggers and people who go on these programmes and basically throw their child under a bus for their 5 minutes of fame really piss me off.

Even talking to a teacher at school the other day I was asked if my child played with x toys and rejected x toys when they were little and is that how I knew.

I've said on here before that my child describes their feelings as like someone who has a huge nose, they are aware of it all the time and it feels wrong, some days they can deal with it, other days they try to hide it, they adapt all their behaviour around trying to minimise their nose as they feel it is so out of place, knowing that there is surgery out there that would make their nose more acceptable to them is the only light there is sometimes. It certainly helped me to understand my childs feelings, as it has been a real struggle at times.

This doesn't fit in with a lot of the narrative I read elsewhere about an internal sense of woman/man, or the programme where that twat described a child simply knowing they were trans 'way down deep where the music plays'

I think there are two types of transgender people. Unfortunately it's the ones struggling the most who are being neglected in this now as the ones who have a vague feeling, or are being convinced they do anyway, want all of the rights with none of the responsibilities.

Although, thanks to an awesome counsellor I found, we are somewhat further forward now and it is looking less and less likely that my child will go down the hormones and surgery route when they can decide for themselves. That is largely thanks to some really awesome posters on here (the evil MN feminist transphobes )

MariposaNieve

Read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. An easy read, very interesting and it will make everything straight in your head.

Hi Fish

I'm so glad you are making some headway. And yes, as time goes on your position is becoming more and more common.

Can I ask what the counsellor has been saying to help your child? It would be really interesting to know what is striking a chord. If it's too private, don't worry, I completely understand.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers, I am so pleased that hormones and surgery is less likely now.

I only know what my child discusses with me afterwards, I dont really talk to the counsellor as that's my child's space to talk about how they feel without me getting emotional.

I specifically chose a counsellor who is also gay and the same sex as my child.

It's a lot of confidence building and looking at the things that my child can do regardless of sex, although I've done that for years I think the fact the counsellor is a neutral person carries more weight, the counsellor also discusses things about how they felt growing up as a gay person, and how they would feel now if they were growing up.

They have also went over a lot about body dysphoria, talked about self harm and eating disorders being common and that wanting to mutilate your body may be a backlash against various things and the possibility of wanting surgery to alter a healthy body being part of that.

They discussed my child's dad a lot also (he was abusive to me, and then my child when they 'came out').

A lot of what my child tells me of these sessions reinforces the various links, blogs and videos that you and prawn have sent me datun and it is really making my child think more deeply as those thoughts have now come from 2 sources independently of each other (if that makes sense).

It's still a long road ahead, but things are a lot better. I asked my child the other day if they would take blockers now if I said yes and they said they wouldn't and that they are glad I didn't allow it yet, although I was hated at the time

There are lots of small things changing at the moment that nobody else would notice really. It's all looking positive, or more positive than it has for a long time anyway.

Although, thanks to an awesome counsellor I found, we are somewhat further forward now and it is looking less and less likely that my child will go down the hormones and surgery route when they can decide for themselves. That is largely thanks to some really awesome posters on here (the evil MN feminist transphobes wink)

Best news I have heard all week. :). I have to say that I was pretty sure from your descriptions that your DC would transition, but if a less invasive alternative can be found that would be great. I'm rather tired today, so this might not come out right, but I respect you so much Fish because I suspect you'd support your DC to the end of the Earth and back no matter what they decided.

SomeDyke

I was with you on there being no innate gender, but how can sexual orientation be 'chosen'? Surely that implies that gay men and women could simply 'choose' to be straight? I'm not sure I ever made a decision to like men and women... I'm a bit confused now?

So, you made a distinct choice not to be attracted to men? I didn't think attraction worked on choice.

fish

I'm so glad. You've done a sterling job. And at least the prospect of medicalisation is receding. Well done to you.

MariposaNieve

There is some evidence to suggest that sexual orientation has far more to do with social contructs then we accept today. Although, for the life of me, I can't recall it. But part of it was that in more ancient times, sexual orientation was far more fluid.

And it was still based on a hierarchical system (no surprise there). So a man might have sex with other men, but if you were on top it was because you were higher up in the hierarchy. Being on the bottom, like women, was considered more lowly.

And there was no stigma to it at all. It was considered perfectly normal.

I don't have much trouble believing that about women, although I don't know if lesbian sex was regarded in the same way. Or if fluidity was reserved for men.

I also don't know whether the sex that goes on in male prisons bears any testament to it.

It was just something I read. I'm not sure of the veracity.

I'm sure somedyke will know though. She is very clued up about all this.

I always thought sexual orientation was based on who you found attractive (which surely you can't pick and choose) rather than which sex you choose to date. For example I've only dated men, and - while open to dating women - I could choose only to date men for the rest of my life... But that wouldn't negate the fact I'm bisexual as I still find women sexually attractive.

It seems you have a different view on that? I'd be interested in that.

Ah, OK Datun, thanks. I quite like these boards even if I don't know much, I'm open to see things from different angles, and the discussions are very up-front and honest.

It's probably that we give names to these things now, homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual. Whereas before it was just sex. And if you wanted to, you did and if you didn't, you didn't.

Or more likely, if someone higher up than you told you you should, then you did!

And yeah, the FWR boards are fascinating.

Datun: "Even if they did a PhD in [female experience], they would still walk out of the University door and quite happily get in an unlicensed taxi."

OMG that deserves a standing ovation.

The question of choice (and its relationship with societal expectation) in terms of sexual orientation is fascinating. I've only ever had sexual relationships with men, and would describe myself as heterosexual if asked. But I certainly find some women attractive. I could easily imagine, in a society in which homosexuality was the norm, that I'd have pursued relationships with women I was attracted to rather than men.

I wanted to be a boy or an animal. Was a role play, because 'boy things' were more exciting - male characters in books and films had adventures. Princesses would just sit on their backsides, or 'good' girls were in domestic slavery.

FlorenceLyons

I'm the same. I'm heterosexual, but I might have tried bisexuality if it didn't mean anything. I'm not particularly attracted to women, but I might have had a stab at it, just to see.

fish

I did some googling on the back of this thread and came across the link below. It's from Gendertrender. The website run by GallusMag, a fairly fierce, out and proud lesbian. It's the comments that are interesting.

Jazz Jennings is the 17 year old poster boy identifiying as a transgirl, with the penis of an eight-year-old and the face of a teenage girl.

Which sounds grim to me, but is entirely normal within the trans-narrative. And also normal to a lot of the general public, which goes to show how far down the rabbit hole we have all gone.

The comments posters, batting this back-and-forth are very smart, clued up women. It's interesting.

GallusMeg said:

Jazz will never know what his natural sexual orientation would have been since his pituitary has been chemically paralyzed, halting his maturity. Whatever orientation he decides on will be an intellectual one, not physical.

In the clip, jazz seemed shocked to discover there was not enough penile material to create a neo vagina. How could he not know?!

How could this not have been one of the major, monumental things to have talked through?

But if he ends up having no sex drive, it may just pass him by.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/08/01/gender-patriarchy-and-all-that-jazz-mary-lou-singleton/#comments

^ The way he talks about his sister's vagina is truly disturbing. Makes me shudder

Good news, fish