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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Male plastic surgeons "correcting" the female body.

106 replies

peripericardium · 07/05/2017 10:46

I was researching scar revision for self-harm scarring I have, and ended up in the world of cosmetic surgery.

Here is an example of a quote from a website:
"Removal of the excess labia can create a more natural appearance and the patient will still be able to feel sensation after surgery."

So, removing what is naturally present will make a vulva look "more natural"?

There are endless photos of normal tits turned into pneumatic boulders with nipples surgically reshaped and reattached.

On one website, there is a huge selection of before/after photos of women who've been "fixed" and a small sub-section for "male procedures".

I've seen slides for labioplasty where a man arrogantly describes his improvement of the labia by removing "excess".

I did find one website for a female cosmetic surgeon, but it was mostly focused on reconstruction after breast cancer and breast reduction, rather than implants which seem to be the focus of the male websites.

I don't necessarily judge women for pursuing cosmetic surgery. After all, by looking into getting my scars reduced, I am in the same box.

But it is incredibly sad that normal variants in female anatomy are being "corrected" for a huge fee by a small number of men who think they know what a woman should look like.

Male plastic surgeons "correcting" the female body.
OP posts:
SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:15

I kiss my dog... with a closed mouth! But I don't use my tongue on them or open my mouth at all. There's a big difference, I think. I also don't like my child's hair... I just smell it. I think again there's a difference between that and oral sex.

Yes, I have a concern mine would interfere with oral sex. That concern is enough for me, even if it is unfounded.

Yeah, I know it was very young to be asked that question by a boy. He was also 13, not older BTW. I have no doubt he asked because he had seen oral in porn movies and wanted to try - which I am not denying is a big problem! I'm just denying that I knew shaving was expected at that age.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:18

Seoul Because I'm included in 'generally'. If getting pubes in your mouth is bullshit and it's all bollocks - then my story about why I shaved is also bollocks, and I am one of the 'sheep' you describe trying to make 'pathetic excuses'. That's why I'm taking it personally, because it implies I'm a liar.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:18

*don't LICK my child's hair.. of course I like it, haha. Oops

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:22

Anyway, I think this is off topic now! I only meant to suggest that not all women think certain things about their body because of patriarchy. Sometimes you just don't like certain things.

Are you saying if patriarchy didn't exist and women were in charge that all future women would love every inch of their natural selves? I think not somehow.

seoulsurvivor · 09/05/2017 19:27

Sleepy, how are you 'included' in generally?

If I said 'women are generally shorter than men' would you get the hump if you happen to be taller?

QuentinSummers · 09/05/2017 19:29

if patriarchy didn't exist and women were in charge that all future women would love every inch of their natural selves

Why is everything so black and white on here? Clearly that's not what we mean.
In the absence of patriarchy more women would love their natural selves and less would feel the need to have cosmetic surgery.
As raised up thread, you don't see cosmetic surgery being advertised to men to fix a large foreskin/overly droopy balls. Or IPL for their pubes. That suggests to me that there is more social pressure on women to "fix" themselves a.k.a. patriarchy.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:32

seoul because your comment about 'calling BS' and 'pathetic excuses' and 'sheep' came straight after I declared I had gotten pubes in my mouth from my partner. So your 'speaking generally' about pubes-in-mouth being bullocks and women lying about it because they don't want to admit their sheep... seems to include me, does it not?

If you said 'I've done XYZ before' and I replied with 'XYZ is bollocks, I'm calling BS, it always amazes me the amount of people who claim XYZ' can you not see how that would imply you are lying?

seoulsurvivor · 09/05/2017 19:33

And Quentin, no doubt in less than 10 posts, someone will pop up saying 'no but I know a guy who DID have droopy ball surgery and my husband waxes his butthole so PROOF!!! No patriarchy!'

Deep fucking sigh.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:34

There most definitely is patriarchy, never going to deny that.

seoulsurvivor · 09/05/2017 19:34

OK, sleepy, everything is about you and your totally cool and legit reasons for shaving your pubes and deep throating at every available opportunity and whatever other boring shite you want to talk about.

The whole thread is not just about you, you know. It's about general trends.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:36

That's not what I am saying. It just implied I was lying that was all. That I was talking BS when I was just sharing my own experience.. that's why I took it personally. How can you not see that?

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:37

Maybe I am just too sensitive, who knows?! Maybe you should read your comment after mine and see why I may have interpreted it the way I did. Sorry

seoulsurvivor · 09/05/2017 19:38

Just bored of talking about you, you personally, when it's not what the thread is about or what anyone else is talking about.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:40

There was no need to be rude though. I shared a personal story about why I myself shaved, then you said you called BS on reasons I stated, so I took offence yes. Maybe I was wrong, but I certainly wasn't trying to make it all about me, and I was never rude to you at all so why do you feel the need to be that way with me? It was a misunderstanding, that's all.

seoulsurvivor · 09/05/2017 19:41

You may need to get over caring so much about what people think of you.

Can we move on?

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:43

I'm also not the only one who shared personal reasons for why they did a certain things and got shot down for it, namely someone else who got told she shouldn't wear certain clothing, when she said discomfort was a reason for getting labia surgery.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:43

seoul hard when you have borderline personality disorder, it gets in the way sometimes, OK? Yes, we can move on.

regrouted · 09/05/2017 19:44

I only meant to suggest that not all women think certain things about their body because of patriarchy. Sometimes you just don't like certain things.

Surely making choices (or whether you have enough agency to make a choice or not) is not separate from other pressures, the patriarchy being one framework of analysis.

I've just got home from having my hair highlighted; do I just like how that looks within "my natural self"?. Or could there possibly be reasons to why I think being blonder looks better and why looking better is important to me? Let alone permanently altering myself surgical for "better" looking genitals.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:44

I admit it was my emotions that got in the way, sorry to this thread. Genuinely.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 19:47

regrouted yes, there could be. But I dye my own hair purple because it's my favourite colour. It's just not all due to pressures, that was the only point I was making. There are people who dye their hair a different colour every week, to colours that are not generally thought flattering- is that patriarchy?

Of course there are certainly a lot of women who dye their hair, say blonde because they hear men prefer them, or get highlights because of glossy magazines etc. But there are some things that don't seem to fit that idea.

regrouted · 09/05/2017 20:10

I hear that Sleepy and so for you, because you are conscious of the decisions you are making and the reasoning behind it then it's not down to pressure, it's because purple is your favourite colour. Perhaps some women with purple hair would be making an ideological statement against the patriarchy by non-confirming.

My point isn't that every single decision a woman makes is because "yeah patriarchy" but when there are trends across women when viewed as a class then that's when the feminist analysis occurs. Many of the schemes that seek to help women and girls achieve their potential (STEM as a prime example) seek to rectify unconscious decisions, forced hands and pressures that feminism claim as being inherent within the patriarchy. I conform to a particular beauty standard that I feel looks nice. Under a feminist analysis, viewing women as a class, my individual behaviour as contributing to perceptions of women as that class is perhaps problematic.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 20:13

But then why do loads of women pierce holes through their lips and noses and get tattoos? Is that because of pressure from men, or is it because they think it looks pretty cool themselves? There are a lot of cosmetic things that don't match with the idea that it's all down to a patriarchal influence...

I'm not anti-feminist btw, patriarchy is a fact, I'm just not sold that if a woman alters her body in an unneccessary way it must be because of men.

Surgery is a male-dominated area, so it makes sense there would be more male plastic surgeons. The way surgery is targeted more towards women is a definite issue though, but perhaps if the ratio of m/f surgeons evened out, we would see more female cosmetic surgeons? Or, do you think women would not wish to enter that sphere as much as men? That's a fair point. The dynamic is definitely askew.

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 20:16

*sorry, I know you just said 'all because of men' wasn't what you are trying to say, missed that message before I sent mine!

SleepyAmetist · 09/05/2017 20:19

I'm very new to feminist analysis, so sorry if I'm sounding very ignorant - probably because I am!

regrouted · 09/05/2017 20:31

I think that the patriarchy doesn't uniformly affect women equally across sub-cultures or alternative enclaves of mainstream society. I think I would also want to investigate types of possible patriarchal influences within those sub-cultures. So in gaming, a traditionally male-dominated area, I'm sure there are plenty of women that enjoy it because they just happen to like gaming as a normalised hobby, women that game but then perform a heteronormative titillating role within it (e.g. women on twitch that monopolise their fans' attraction for them/highly sexualised cosplayers) and then women that perhaps never sought to get into it as that's a "man's hobby".

In terms of female cosmetic surgeons, there isn't anything intrinsic about being female that would mean a woman wouldn't be to be a surgeon. But as a feminist (and also a HCP), I would want to look to the impact of notions of surgery as an old boy's club, how potential childrearing would alter a medic's career path and as you say what the perceptions and rates of particular procedures would be between male and female surgeons (this list isn't exhaustive). I also think that just because that surgeon is female that doesn't mean they have a inherent feminist view of cosmetic surgery (or any other aspect of their life, with or without purple or blonde hair).