Male plastic surgeons "correcting" the female body.

[peripericardium]

I was researching scar revision for self-harm scarring I have, and ended up in the world of cosmetic surgery.

Here is an example of a quote from a website:
"Removal of the excess labia can create a more natural appearance and the patient will still be able to feel sensation after surgery."

So, removing what is naturally present will make a vulva look "more natural"?

There are endless photos of normal tits turned into pneumatic boulders with nipples surgically reshaped and reattached.

On one website, there is a huge selection of before/after photos of women who've been "fixed" and a small sub-section for "male procedures".

I've seen slides for labioplasty where a man arrogantly describes his improvement of the labia by removing "excess".

I did find one website for a female cosmetic surgeon, but it was mostly focused on reconstruction after breast cancer and breast reduction, rather than implants which seem to be the focus of the male websites.

I don't necessarily judge women for pursuing cosmetic surgery. After all, by looking into getting my scars reduced, I am in the same box.

But it is incredibly sad that normal variants in female anatomy are being "corrected" for a huge fee by a small number of men who think they know what a woman should look like.

"we should all look to porn to show us that different body shapes are out there."
Last fad I can remember supposedly coming out of porn was folks bleaching their bum-holes..............

Perhaps that was also part of this totally wonderful totally-representative depiction of female bodies and female sexuality and I failed to notice..................

Only bum-hole I know of that looks that sparkling is the cats!

Yes totally mummabubs. I was completely hung up on it for years; to have those feelings dismissed as competitive or because of reading closer.... wtf?? Women have to right to feel comfortable with their bodies and I am disappointed to see this shaming attitude on a feminist thread when empathy and empowerment - the things I'd expect to see- are part of what makes women so awesome.

It's not a "shaming attitude" to discuss the patriarchal context that's encouraging women to have plastic surgery, including labiaplasty, so their bodies fit a socially desirable norm.
Women can do whatever they want to their bodies, totally fine, none of our business. Doesn't change the wider societal context where labia are called "beef curtains" and talked about derogitarily. And I say that as someone with hang ups thanks to an idiot boy in my youth.

So because of the patriarchal context, you think it means some of the comments on this thread which are without doubt shaming, patronising and insulting to women can be dismissed?

I see what you're saying Quentin but the posts from that particular user were judging the women who make the decision to change their bodies, not society or men whose views potentially lead those women to view their body unfavourably.

There is always going to be an unavoidable(?) tension over this issue when some women feel they have made a fully-informed totally free empowering choice, and others feel that the issue is that very often our 'free' choices aren't as 'free' as we would like to think they are.

Which can come across as a bit of a shock, and perhaps not the friendliest when it comes on these boards (which is why back in the days of paleo-feminism, we used to have things like consciousness raising groups rather than having to do the pointing out in this new-fangled way!). But the only alternative is not pointing the issues out, and hence having no discussion at all.

Because it is all of us who are in the same boat, none of us are totally free to chose (although may be a bit more 'free' than others).

I really reject the idea that no women can have agency over their own feelings about their body - that they must be influenced by the patriarchal agenda.

I shaved my vagina at aged 13. A boyfriend asked to perform oral sex on me - I refused. He didn't say anything about pubic hair, he simply asked.
When I went home I thought about oral sex and imagined what it would be like. I imagined performing oral sex on other girls and realised that the thought of putting my mouth/tongue on public hair made me feel a bit rough. Surely you would pick up a few pubes in your mouth along the way? I just didn't like the idea. Since then I've shaved - not just for males, but for any female who may be exploring down their too. I wouldn't want to do it to a woman who wasn't at least trimmed so I wouldn't expect them to do it either.

I don't even like men who don't shave. Who wants to perform oral sex on a man just to have that vile feeling of having a hair that got loose stuck at the back of the throat? No thanks!

My feelings about my boobs actually stemmed from an eating disorder (caused by trauma, not by men) at age 12, where it stunted my breast development, so while the majority of my friends were growing breasts I was still an AA and could wear training bras. I felt left out. Again, nothing to do with men.

Of course patriarchal ideas about female bodies play a huge role for a lot of girls and women. But to imply that any women who had cosmetic surgery is doing it to conform to the ideals of men etc is quite sexist in itself.

I'm not denying the extreme prensure put on females to look a certain way... But just as we have preferences in what we find physically attractive in partners, so we can also have preferences about our own body.

Sorry for the typos

I'm always amazed by all the people who talk about getting pubes in their mouth when they do oral. I call BS. It's happened to me maybe twice in my life and it's never been a big deal. Certainly not a big enough deal to shave all my pubes off for.

If you want to do it, go ahead, but the excuse making is kind of pathetic.

seol it happens to me almost every time I give oral to my boyfriend, to the point where he tidies it up for me beforehand. I don't know how it happens but it does.

It's not just about getting a pube in my mouth, I just don't want to lick/put my mouth on hair. It's not a nice feeling.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but when you were 13 your boyfriend asked to perform oral sex on you?

Beauty Yes? He was the first guy I ever kissed properly and it never went further than a kiss, despite him asking that question.

Sorry, I thought the implication was that you did have sex with him, because you decided to shave. I'm not sure it's a very typical reaction to thinking about oral sex as a child though.

If you are shaving your vagina (and not knowing the difference between a vagina and your vulva or outer lips) at 13, and being asked by a boyfriend at 13 if he can perform oral sex on you, etc etc, then you have certainly been influenced by something, and you haven't been brought up in a vacuum by robots.....................

You can't make yourself free of the patriarchy by wishing it, or just claiming that you are. You are part of the same society as the rest of us (unless you really were raised in a sealed box by robots, and then, of course, depends who programmed the robots! -- or you are actually an alien with years of a different length to our current earthly ones......)

The patriarchy doesn't just mean that it has to be communicated to you by men/boys BTW, so, I say again, unless you were raised in a box by self-programming and self-evolved or alien robots, it GOT to you -- whether you like it or not, whether you admit it or not.........

Yeah, I'm not the only one here a little perturbed by the requests for oral sex at 13..................

I mean, maybe I've been doing it wrong my whole life but how much hair is there on a wang? If your mouth is all over the pube part, how much fun is it for the guy? Same with women, the important bit is the non-hairy part, surely.

Also, what, until like 20 years ago, no one did oral or what? Very few women shaved their pubes and almost no men, so I find it quite hard to believe that people aren't just doing it because it's expected.

If you can deep throat a penis, specifically one that isn't huge, your lips are down the end of the shaft, and if a guy has long pubes that can cause an issue.

At 13 I didn't know shaving a down there was a thing though, or preferred etc. I didn't watch porn and hadn't come across it before. It may have been the way he asked, though? He didn't ask for oral per se, more a "Can I lick it" which just icked me out because why would you want to lick something hairy? That got in my head and it's just been my way ever since.

I will say on the rare occasions I have let it 'grow out' I have had negative experiences with discharge (sorry for the tmi). I've always had it quite heavily and found if I had longer/denser collection of hair around there sometimes the discharge would collect in it, which isn't very appealing to anyone I would imagine.

I'm sure I'll get called out for BS again though, just because my own experiences of oral and pubes/dc don't match with someone elses.

Yes, but if you have a bush sometimes you can't even see the clit/hole/labia so surely would interfere a little bit.

Either way, even if it doesn't happen, it's the idea of it possible happening that puts me off. The idea of it happening is enough for me. As you say, it has happened a couple times to yourself - personally that would be enough for me to shave. We obviously just have different tolerance levels in regards to that.

It would have to be a fairly tiny penis with fairly spectacular pubes to constantly be getting pubes in your mouth.

And if it was such an issue, why bother doing it anyway?

It's such bollocks. People do it cos it's become normalised and then they make up excuses to justify their sheepy behaviour.

SomeDyke

I didn't say I wasn't influenced by anything. I said I wasn't influenced by the ideals of men on how a vagina should be presented. I was influenced by the thought of putting my tongue anywhere near a bush of pubes. After that it's just become habit really. I only found out it was a proper thing a bit over a year later.

seoul at 13 I didn't know it was a thing so how was I being a sheep? But of course I'm obviously a liar who knew all about shaving and how it was expected and a fashion at 13...

I'm 52. I have been trimming all my adult life. Taking the hair away cutting it short with trimmers/razors. I was married at 19 and I know I did it for my week night.

And I know my friends were doing it. My best friend is 57 so that's at least 40 years of trimming.

Which is a lot more than 20.

I don't 'constantly' get pubes in my mouth. It's one pube maybe every 1/2. As I said he now trims for me and it has helped. If it wasn't a problem for me, he wouldn't need to trim.

I think your being rude to me for no reason. We have different experiences, why is that so hard to comprehend?

"but if you have a bush sometimes you can't even see the clit/hole/labia so surely would interfere a little bit. "
I think the real issue here is that you are concerned that yours would interfere. As a lesbian, I've found that in general it doesn't BTW.

But I think people were more perturbed by the being asked at 13, and your statement that you shaved yours at 13.

Odd frankly, given how many people will get very snuggly and personal (but not sexual, so stop that sniggering at the back) with their hairy cat or dog (let's not get into the doggy kisses thing!!) and we all know how much our cat or dog sheds! --- yet claim to be all touchy about the possibility of contact with a human pubic hair, even from a very clean and freshly-washed human that you quite like. How many of us like the smell of our lovers head hair, yet we are supposed to be all icky about similarly clean pubes................

Unless you expect your lover to shave all over, permanently, or you only ever fancied Duncan Goodhew, then this pubic hair thing is just a weird thing, and who started it??? Why??

sleepy why are you taking it personally? I'm not addressing you, I'm talking generally.

To the people who are saying they've always done it: there are always exceptions. I don't think many would claim that removing pubic hair hasn't risen in popularity in the last 20 years.

A friend of mine was mortified in university when she removed more than she meant to and ended up a bit bald. It was definitely seen as being a bit kinky or odd at that time. Nowadays it's basically expected and if you don't do it, you're 'dirty' or 'lazy'.