Trans and sport - so what would be fair?

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So if trans women have an unfair advantage in sport against women, but so do trans men - what's the fair solution?

Would it be fair to say that an unfortunate "side affect" of transition is that you can never compete in a sport that is normally sex(gender) segregated? Can practice it, but not compete above say amateur club level?

Or would you say that all trans people have to compete in the "men's" - which would obviously be very outing, and wouldput the trans athletes at a disadvantage and so potentially discriminating.

What would be the fair solution?

I agree that if you change gender you accept that elite level sport is no longer an option. Much the same as wheelchair athletes can't compete in the able bodied marathon, i don't think there's any way to make things "fair".

Age group, masters level, fine. Bring about whatever rules to level the field. But international, representing your country level, no.

My 7 year old dd is competing against a boy who identifies as female. There is only a slight advantage currently, but at that level nothing worth getting worked up about.

Even in amateur sport there are some sports where issues of safety come into it - e.g. rugby, wrestling, boxing. There's no way someone with male physiology should be competing against women in this sort of sport.

Good question.
Change the men's to 'Open' (I.e. Anyone including women) which would make it similar to sports that don't need to have have separation (e.g. Showjumping). Add more physical categories to contact sports e.g weights/heights in boxing to mitigate for the increase in competitors.
Women's becomes xx chromosome and no testosterone.

More categories or open would work? But would the menz go for that?

Trans athletics and sport needs its own separate races in each category, with proper training programmes and recognition of leading trans athletes.

It will take time to build up enough for spaces to be held and time to be available in many of the biggest sporting events, but that can be worked on, the same way its taken time for paralympians to become household names and the paralympics to begin to gain real visibility and support.

The issue would be 'trans women are women so must be allowed to compete as women even if it massively disadvantages the cis women'. And the feeling that women's sport is richly improved by the achievements of transwomen instead of acknowledging that this destroys sport for born women. This will not be open for discussion, since as some early posts here demonstrate, saying anything but Whoo! Go you! Huge round of applause! can be interpreted as transphobic.

They need to start setting up their own competitions. Like women had to, until very recently.

I have a feeling this won't be good enough for the ones who are all about validation, rather than fair and competitive sporting opportunities.

I will happily campaign alongside trans people for their own categories and competitions. Recognition for their achievements.

But personally can't see a way of fairly integrating transwomen into women's sport. I think that this must be accepted as an unfortunate side effect of transition, as you suggest OP.

Its up to trans people to decide, they can compete in an Open class or against men. But if they choose to compete against women they are perceived as cheating in order to win, and they will kill women's sports.

Surely it should come down to a drugs issue?
I thought if a woman was found to be doping with testosterone she'd be banned from sport. Why is a Transman in sport allowed to dope with testosterone?

Also... Taking Oestrogen, it's still a drug enabling you to compete in a playing field that would otherwise be inaccessible to you...

It seems being trans makes you immune to accusations of doping?

I think all drugs and hormones should be banned from sport.

It's pretty simple really, if we want to see women being able to compete in sport at a high level, then we must have seperate classes for MtT and FtT so that they can compete fairly. Unless it's really all about being validated as the sex they now wish to be seen as, and is actually about the joy of competeing in a sport they love then this is what transsexual competitors will fight for.

So, let's see if that's what they do.

Am I going nuts? Not so long ago women Olympic athletes were routinely tested for chromosome anomalies (following suspected and proven cheating from former Iron Curtian states in the 60s and 70s. It was a standing joke that various Iron Curtain women weightlifters or hammer throwers were extremely dubious, XYY-wise. )

In fact I seem to recall that the ONLY woman competitor not tested in the 1976 (?) Olympics for chromosomal abnormalities was Princess Anne!
So what the hell has happened? Do the authorities really think that MTT competitors have no inbuilt advantage over women in , say, athletics, or weightlifting, or swimming? What planet are they living on?

Only their own thing. Like Paralympics, Special Olympics, etc.
Leave women alone.

I've heard of a badminton league where due to MtT playing in the women's they men's have become 'open'.

The woman who told me is playing in the new open category and the women's category and is having a great time whooping the MtT in women's and then playing in the men's and whipping the men in that too .

I'm not advocating it but it made me laugh when I heard.

I think that sport needs to stay sex segregated and that sometimes people have to learn to accept that they can't do everything they want. I feel the same way about intersexual athletes too, where there would be an inbuilt advantage, whether by a cruel slip of nature, or whether by deliberate action, these individuals are ruled out of sport. I don't care if they want to bring in a separate category like the paralymics, it's up to them.

Transgender events. Transgender people compete against each other. That's what's fair.

I think it should be the same in younger people's / more amateur events. If a young person has worked extremely hard at her sport, to then be pipped to the post by a trans girl would be unfair and dispiriting. My dd ran the XC nationals at 14 and the boys times were significantly faster even at this age. It's squeezing at girls before they even get a chance to develop their sport. I don't know what the answer is apart from a separate category.

Would it be fair to say that an unfortunate "side affect" of transition is that you can never compete in a sport that is normally sex(gender) segregated? Can practice it, but not compete above say amateur club level?

Yes I think it would be. You are purposely changing your body with hormones. Doping is illegal. Would be easy enough to get around.

Or have a trans league.

Only 'fair' ways.

There is already a well established gay sports network, many gay clubs, and a gay olympics "The Gay Games".

Willing to bet they don't want transgender individuals joining in their competitions either...

There's also the transplant games and the deaflympics. There is precedent..

Through a shared interest sports group, I know a FTM person who competes in said sport. The sport isn't one that has a particularly significant male/female differential (like, say, boxing), so it doesn't make much difference in terms of results.

What I don't get though, is why they feel compelled to make their competing all about their gender identify. Does it matter? Why is that the over-riding factor about it? Surely the point is that they are good at their sport? All the press interviews I have read; and all the BTL comments and FB friends seem to be massively cheering on the FTM aspect of this person above all else. How that somehow makes them a champion of the sport, not their actual ability (which comes across as almost a sideline!)

Don't get it. Therefore I choose to say nothing at all, but I feel that that is perceived as actively negative - a real, "if you aren't with us, you are against us" situation.

Yes either not allowed to compete at high levels or trans events. Anything else is unfair and crazy.

I see allowing transwomen to compete against females kind of the same as..

Boxing for example, lightweight, heavyweight categories and such. If someone in the heavyweight category decided they 'felt' like a lightweight...would they be allowed to compete against the lightweights instead? Of course not.

With" categories of trans" there are all sorts of subtleties though - eg a MTT who has not undergone male puberty would be at a huge disadvantage against one who has. It would be very difficult not to start discriminating!

With" categories of trans" there are all sorts of subtleties though - eg a MTT who has not undergone male puberty would be at a huge disadvantage against one who has. It would be very difficult not to start discriminating!

Well if it couldn't be done fairly..then they cannot compete

There are loads of reasons why people cannot compete..purposely taking hormones (be estrogen or testoterone) could easily be banned...and probably should.

Is there actually any legitimate reason for sex segregation in sports at all? Why shouldn't it be done on weight, muscle mass, or some other limiting factor? It just seems to me something that is so anachronistic and at odds with equality as a concept.

Maybe we have to add extra classes for trans men and trans women. Or introduce the sort of classifications that they have in the para-sports?

The end result needs to be a reasonably level playing field. Of course it is never going to be completely level - if it were, there would never be any winners, or any fun watching.