Trans and sport - so what would be fair?

[SleepWhatSleep1]

So if trans women have an unfair advantage in sport against women, but so do trans men - what's the fair solution?

Would it be fair to say that an unfortunate "side affect" of transition is that you can never compete in a sport that is normally sex(gender) segregated? Can practice it, but not compete above say amateur club level?

Or would you say that all trans people have to compete in the "men's" - which would obviously be very outing, and wouldput the trans athletes at a disadvantage and so potentially discriminating.

What would be the fair solution?

With" categories of trans" there are all sorts of subtleties though - eg a MTT who has not undergone male puberty would be at a huge disadvantage against one who has. It would be very difficult not to start discriminating!

As STDG says, categories technically worked out the same as paras, with possibly more than one award being competed for in the same race. Not insurmountable at all.

@keepithidden But in some sports the difference in size/weight is what makes the contest fascinating, eg. tennis -the dual between the tall big server and the small hustler in tennis or rugby -the different sizes in different positions.

Aargh - duel

You can't just separate by size or weight.

A man with a 10th percentile grip strength has the same grip as a woman with a 95th percentile grip strength.

Higher testosterone levels also allow faster recovery from muscle tears and strength training exercises.

There are a dozen different statistics like that -- athletic skills where the bimodal distribution is incredibly clear, and delineated along sex-based lines.

Most athletic competitions use a range of these skills and abilities. To simply divide by weight class or height is to ignore that there's an entire range of bimodal measurements like this.

It's a real problem. Either you have too few categories, and it is intrinsically unfair, or you have too many categories and it becomes very complicated.

It reminds me a bit of Brave New World. What would happen if you tried to completely level the playing field.

I was thinking today -

If the trans activists get their way, and transwomen are allowed to compete against women with no barriers, then in some sports (the ones in which males have the most significant advantages over women) I believe there would end up being effectively two categories - men and transwomen, with biological females removed completely.

Would that really make the trans activists happy? Surely that would go against what they're trying to achieve (ie transwomen treated exactly like women)?

Is there actually any legitimate reason for sex segregation in sports at all?

Yes. Male bodies/hormones make them stronger and faster so females wouldn't stand a chance against them overall. All winners would be male. Probably full top 20 or so tbh. Someone pointed out earlier in the thread that the fastest woman in a race was still slower than all entrants in the make category or something. Biology matters...and it shows. Check out records for male/female sports. I would be that in every category males beat the females byh a long shot...

Apologies, it was a different thread that was said in

It's not just strength and weight though. Men have a different centre of gravity, a narrower pelvis, strength to weight ratio, hips set differently, bigger feet and hands etc...

sports are self selecting for physicality- you don't get tall gymnasts because you can't rotate at speed. Swimmers sit differently in the water depending on their body fat %, and need to be tall for maximum distance on each arm pull.

The chinese are already suspected of things like using growth hormones to produce taller swimmers and basketball players, and using very young girls in sports like gymnastics, falsifying birth certificates. there are rules to keep sport fair. Changing sex should be treated the same as changing any other physical quality by artificial means.

All elite athletes already make a number of sacrifices to be able to compete at the top level, whether that is giving up educational opportunities, having a "normal" social life, reaching their full earning potential etc etc. And women have to decide what to do about having children (many don't have them at all, or have them much later in life than ideal by waiting until they retire.)

If an elite male athlete decides to transition, they should have to make a decision whether to wait until they have finished competing, or transition sooner and retire from sport earlier than planned. They shouldn't get two bites at the cherry by retiring from men's sport, transitioning, then coming back as a female competitor.

One issue, however, is that I wouldn't want to see teens pressurised into transitioning early because of sports: I can see boys being told that if they want to compete as a girl they need to transition before puberty, say.

And in addition, I think we need to ensure that up and coming female athletes are protected in particular. The pathway to elite competition is - for most sports - through amateur competition, so if we draw the line in the wrong place we will effectively cut off the pipeline of female talent.

It's not really up to women to come up with a solution. I'm happy to say "no, that's not appropriate" (or stronger ) at these steps to move into women's spheres and equally happy to consider alternative proposals that are put forward by those who want to appropriate.

Anyone seen a thread on trans forums asking the same question as the op?

Hmm yes, it would be interesting to know if trans forums perceive this as an issue that needs discussion...

Hmm yes, it would be interesting to know if trans forums perceive this as an issue that needs discussion...

What better example than sport to demonstrate that transwomen are better at being women than women?

Transwomen are the best women. Period.

...I assume they would say.

Continuing sex segregation is the only way. For young kids, up to the age of 8 or so, the differences are minimal, but from then on, not only the physical changes start but the social ones, too. How many of us have, know, or were the girls who felt far too self conscious to continue sport when we started to develop, or had absorbed the message that sport is really much more important for boys?

I also couldn't agree less with the idea that it "doesn't matter" at an amateur level. Physical fitness, or lack of it, is a HUGE issue in the western world, and it's also a gendered issue in that so many girls and women don't get enough exercise. Participation in sport is a key way to get and keep girls and women engaged in moving and being fit. I completely oppose anything, no matter how small that puts additional barriers in place, and that includes the perception that you can train as hard as you want, but if you compete, then a trans identifying male can still show up, compete in your event and trounce you and you have to be happy and supportive about it.

I disagree with trying to segregate more by weight or height as well. As a solidly built 6-footer, it would be me who'd be competing against trans identifying males. I used to play rugby - it is hard and dangerous enough playing against women. I couldn't have hoped to compete against male bodied people, no matter how much oestrogen they might have taken, and I would be too afraid to.

Sex segregation. Always.

I'm sad for girls in the USA, where success at sports can help you get a funded place at uni.

Have a look at this story and the photos. I'd say that Andraya has a clearly male body with the advantages of male muscular development , height and reach, (Also seems to have a moustache but maybe that's an unflattering pic).

www.courant.com/opinion/insight/hc-op-insight-rader-transgender-athletes-0416-20170414-story.html

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/andraya-hasnt-taken-any-medical-steps-at-all-towards-transitioning-from-male-to-female-hes-100-per-cent-bloke/news-story/9cf61229fe4c54d420a5660c3daf7d36

I think everything I think on the matter has been said here. But my tuppence -
Any XX females who don't take 'performance enhancing' hormones need our own category in sport in order to have a fair chance to compete. It is that simple.

Transing people and their enablers need to take responsibility for three possible fair options:

1. Play in the males team and have hurt feelings through not being validated as female and possibly disadvantaged by taking testisterone blockers or being disadvantaged because you are still biologically female even though you take male hormones.
2. Play in you own sex-segregated teams but don't take hormones this would fairly remove all sporting disadvantages but would not validate their trans status.
3. Create new trans categories/leagues in sport which is very complicated as posters above have highlighted - but not impossible to work through since in the paralympics they have to make best judgements about parity between disbilities.

There needs to be some serious thought put into this by transpeople and those pushing for trans normalisation.
It might mean having a chat with your athletically talented 'trans' kids - you need to choose: either you compete with males and be disadvantaged, don't take hormones and compete according to your biological sex, or we fight to have our own league.

It's the only fair thing to do.

Hmm yes, it would be interesting to know if trans forums perceive this as an issue that needs discussion...

I would expect to find here some responses along lines of ones I've seen before (not specific to sport) , that the perceived unfairness against XX women is actually fair reparation for their cis privilege, which has some punishment/revenge overtones I find a bit alarming. I would also expect to find an expectation that women should celebrate transwomen achievements as women's achievements, or we're back to the whole 'but transwomen are real women, you can't discriminate against the physically advantaged among women'.

See also: 'Feminism should centre Trans women'

Gah, expect to find THERE on the forum, not here in the thread.

I would expect to find there some responses along lines of ones I've seen before (not specific to sport) , that the perceived unfairness against XX women is actually fair reparation for their cis privilege, which has some punishment/revenge overtones I find a bit alarming. I would also expect to find an expectation that women should celebrate transwomen achievements as women's achievements, or we're back to the whole 'but transwomen are real women, you can't discriminate against the physically advantaged among women'.

So more of the same mad, illogical appeals to emotions and pity - ie gaslighting. .

Why do trans have to participate in professional sports at all?

They're not 50% of the population. They're a tiny minority. There's lots of people who have no chance in hell to achieve anything in professional sports due to disability, illness, etc., or just plain bad genes.

The premise that we must somehow enable them to participate in professional sports is a wrong one. There is no ethical requirement for us to do so.

They can start their own thing, like disabled people have done, but I really don't see why we should make transpeople's selfmade problem our problem.

They were born able to participate in professional sports (which many male trans did with great success, see Jenner), and willfully decided to either: Throw a completely unnecessary temper tantrum about having to compete against their own biological sex, or: Modify their bodies in ways that gave them an unfair advantage or a disadvantage against other people of their own sex, thus rendering themselves unfit to compete against their own sex, the only existing category into which they could ever have fit.

And as for school sports and amateur sports: Children should not be transed, and can therefore compete against their own sex. In amateur sports, safety should come first, so male trans can compete against males; they might have less of a chance to win, but that shouldn't matter anyway, right?
And female trans can compete against males at their own risk, if they so choose.

Exactly,vestal. In sick to death of MTT coming up with yet more moral dilemmas for women to solve. Its not our problem.

Intrigued by OP's mention of trans forums, I Googled. I found this thread about the MTT weightlifter in the forum Reddit AskTransgender. Pretty eye opening!