Trans and sport - so what would be fair?

[SleepWhatSleep1]

So if trans women have an unfair advantage in sport against women, but so do trans men - what's the fair solution?

Would it be fair to say that an unfortunate "side affect" of transition is that you can never compete in a sport that is normally sex(gender) segregated? Can practice it, but not compete above say amateur club level?

Or would you say that all trans people have to compete in the "men's" - which would obviously be very outing, and wouldput the trans athletes at a disadvantage and so potentially discriminating.

What would be the fair solution?

Interesting.

*opposition is transphobia
*transwomen can't even open jars anymore so if they win in sport it's a happy accident of nature
*some "ciswomen" are six foot five

prawn I just started looking at the forum and the tone of it is irritating in a way that sets my teeth on edge - you can sniff the bullshit of fantasists - it's all so bloody sing-songy whimsical about deeply serious matters. I get the feeling that there are a fair few posters trying out personas and perspectives on the anonymous internet -maybe teens? It screems bullshit to me.

I saw an interesting mix of comments in that MTT weightlifter thread, Prawn, including some from MTT themselves who were saying that the IOC has got the requirements wrong, that MTT still have a physical advantage over women post-transition.

This comment made me smile (or grimace), though:

Science, reason and policy isn't going to change random biased redditors minds. I tried. They hold on to naive theory that 'peens = dudes bro' no matter how much science you show them.

The irony...!

There are lots of transgender forums, some of them NSFW. There are also at least two supposedly lesbian subs that are moderated by male lesbians and their partners, plus young libfems who nod along. I keep meaning to make a list of all of them.

The lesbian ones have a chronology. The first one got overrun by cotton ceiling rhetoric so the lesbians started a new woman only sub. Then the same thing happened again. I'm not sure if they're on their third or fourth incarnation now. It's depressing.

Intrigued by OP's mention of trans forums, I Googled. I found this thread about the MTT weightlifter in the forum Reddit AskTransgender. Pretty eye opening!

So the few examples of very tall 'cis' women, and the existence of some women with broad shoulders and such proves that males do not have a biological advantage over females? Fuck me. Why have segregated sports in the first place then...and obviously just a huge coincidence that the top 100 male runners are ALL faster than the top female one eh...

The stuff about transwomen becoming as weak as baby rabbits is pathetic. As pathetic as the claims that once started on estrogen they are worse drivers and lose intelligence

Then the same thing happened again. I'm not sure if they're on their third or fourth incarnation now. It's depressing.

There are some subreddits that are purple for lesbians (female lesbians..the only lesbians that exist) but they seem to exist mainly because these female lesbians have been outcasted from other groups for...being attracted to other females rather and 'gender identities'. Its a bit sad really.

are purple? = exist. Thanks autocorrect

Also rather than

WTF

I had a look on some trans reddits. OMG I wish I could brain bleach but I got sucked in. Especially the ones about their gender reassignment surgery. I would not with that horror on anyone! Bits falling off, pain, blood, regret,and all for something that only vaguely resembles the genuine article... :(

But anyway. I found nothing to suggest any awareness that TW in sport might be an issue other than as a possible transphobic scenario.

Transactivists put forward this butter wouldn't melt act, counting on the old stereotypes, that they're androphiles and "just wanna pee", but once you investigate the other side of the trans community you find all sorts of shit hiding in plain sight.

The scale of the fetish and narcissism is alarming. I know there are MTTs who empathize with women, but they seem to be rare. Most of them seem more misogynist than the average man.

That weightlifting thread was all about how mean everyone is in not endorsing any and every thing MTTs want to take over, Sleep. No awareness of the impact of MTT competitors on women's sports. It's almost as if we're not entirely human to them, that "woman" is a costume they can put on... Oh, wait...

I had a quick read, wowsers. Those poor loves really do know about echo chambers, and clearly don't recognise stats and facts outside of their own imagination.

A biological woman who wants to "express" her femininity in a steriotypical way with boob jobs and hair extensions etc won't be chosing professional athletics

Same should apply to men really who want to express their steriotypical ideas of femininity physically TBH

Biological women in sport ALL make sacrifices re their gender and sexual expression, often chosing to delay childbearing, or not take hormone contraceptives, even sacrificing any chance of normal relationships.

You cant have it all and be a professional athlete… unless you're a man.. then you can if you join the womens team!

Gavin/Laurel Hubbard's at it again - at a competition yesterday he beat the weightlifting records he set only last month:
m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11847676

His nearest female competitor lagged some 41kg behind. 41kg! It seems clear the only woman who will ever attain the same results will have to be a MTT too. I am so looking forward to the 2020 Olympic Games...

His nearest female competitor lagged some 41kg behind. 41kg! It seems clear the only woman who will ever attain the same results will have to be a MTT too. I am so looking forward to the 2020 Olympic Games...

Just a coincidence...a 'cis' woman could easily be able to do that. Don't be so transphobic, implying they only got that record because they are trans. Shame on you!

Except a 'cis' woman couldn't ever match nevermind beat that..because...biology.

Prawn just slogged my way through that weightlifting reddit. I'm honestly lost for words ....

There were a couple of posters who could see the problem, and a few more who could see it might led to bad publicity for trans.

But mostly, they couldn't see the problem. I wonder if, once they start to make exceptions to the 'transwomen are women' line, the know the whole concept fails.

get the feeling that there are a fair few posters trying out personas and perspectives on the anonymous internet -maybe teens? It screems bullshit to me.

Yes, I think a fair few of them aren't actually out as as trans.

Tinsel - actually, one of the really crazy things about the current MTT Olympian rules is that a man who takes a cold remedy that contains a trace amount of banned substance like nandrolone and is tested out of competition could be banned from competing for a number of years, but a MTT who has kept their testosterone levels below the allowed level (but is still likely to be well over the average female competitor's testosterone level, as well as having the other physiological advantages of being male) is apparently A-OK

I wonder if part of the issue is that MTT taking hormone treatment do in fact feel significantly weaker than before. For example, my current course of spirolactone (a drug I take for my terrible skin, but one that seems to be prescribed for MTT if the Reddit threads are anything to go by) has lead to various side-effects, including being a diuretic and making me feel light-headed and giddy (so far less able to drive). I can imagine that long term HRT use that leads to muscle wastage can make a MTT feel so much weaker than previously that they imagine this is what it is like to be a woman.

So I'm trying to be kind, and say that it's perhaps not completely surprising that MTT underestimate the impact that taking hormones has on their physical capacity, because it is indeed noticeably less than they are used to. But - and here's the recurring theme with TRAs - they also fail to heed what women are telling them, that even a reduced capability man has more strength than most women have, and make the assumption that anyone objecting to their participation in sports is a nasty TERF-y bigot

OlennasWimple well, quite!

trans athletes wail about needing to "express their true selves" but other athletes put off almost all personal things until they're coming close to retirement, they don't express anything they just eat/sleep/breath their sport.

I knew a professional swimmer, she didn't "express her womanhood", she gave up pretty much all her teens to train and didn't get to "express" being a normal teenage girl. She didn't have any sort of style of her own until much later

If a MTT athlete was as serious about their sport as the women they compete against, they'ld put all asthetic things to one side in the short term and just focus on the sport knowing that the careers are short and there'ld be time for all that later

but they wanna look girly now - only that's not compatable with professional sports, but they want that too, so they wanna drop down a class so that they can still win without sacrificing everything they wan't like the biological women they're racing against do!

It's like a boxer who who doesn't wanna diet insisting he get into a lower weight category so he can eat normally and still win

Similarly, I went to a school with a girl who was heading for pro in her sport, but she wanted to be a "normal teenage girl" so gave up most of the competing and just did it as a hobby because it was incompatible

But if a boy in her sport decided he wanted a go at being a "normal teenage girl", he could do that and get popped into a class that's easier for him to win at with less effort/imput/physical strain.

I'm not saying it's not still hard work for a man to compete against women in sport but they still have a chance without having to sacrifice everything else like the athletes in their correct sex groups do!

Yup, I had a good friend who was a serious swimmer (county level). Even at the age of 13 she was having to pee into pots if she came in the top three or was randomly chosen at a competition. She effectively missed the best of her teenage years in favour of her sport, training at least once every day. She read every label on every food, drink and over-the-counter medicine because it's amazing how easy it is to slip up inadvertently. The idea that she could have been doing all that and still trail in last because the field was mostly comprised of MTT is completely unacceptable.

The logic is ridiculous. They are simultaneously saying:
There is no significant difference in male and female bodies.
I cant bear my male body so I have to 'trans'.
You can't have it both ways.

I'm a runner (just a club runner) and I don't think MtT should be allowed to compete as female on even an amateur level. There are prizes for age category etc and for amateur runners we like seeing where we finish as compared to other runners in our class. Men are generally so much faster than women. Women have more lower limb issues due to our pelvis/bone structure. Smaller lungs/heart. our muscles respond differently. And don't even get me started on the pelvic floor- our is completely different to men and MtF don't get landed with a female one of those! .. I think an X category might be too 'visible' and I don't think it's fair if people are put off sport. Maybe if there was an X but they keep sex 'hidden' to all except the organisers on results/entries unless you land in the top 3? And an option to be considered for prizes in X category if happy to be known?

I think what would be fair is to stop pretending that men are actually women.