Pink brains and blue brains

[minniebear]

So everything in me believes there is no such thing as a girl brain or a boy brain, and it bugs me a bit when family stereotype based on gender (I have two girls: girls are better behaved and easier to raise, boys are more interested in playing with toy cars and better at throwing, as examples).

Can anyone hit me with some facts to back up what I intuitively believe to be true (that gender differences such as those listed above are down to socialisation rather than biology)? Or am I wrong? I just want to feel I have it right in my own head. Im confident in the way I'm raising my girls and am aware of (and trying to avoid) gender stereotyping, and I'm not planning to rant and rave at the next person to bring all this up. I just want to better educate myself.

Ooh finding this thread very interesting to read.
I have a daughter born February 2013, she's feisty, confident, active, and calls herself a "tom boy" we have never forced her to be a specific so called girl or boy. She is herself and chooses to play with whatever she wants, she is lucky that I'm a childminder so have lots of toys and she'll always go for the so called boys toys first. But then she is gentle caring and accepting to anyone. Im pregnant with a boy and am going to treat them exactly the same, if he plays with the cars or wants to wear a dress then that's fine with us, as long as they're happy and healthy, stuff so called gender stereotypes. At such a young age it rages me that society try to force it on them.

prawn

Could you expand more on your post? If you don't feel comfortable talking about your own experience, could you say a bit more about the woman in Afghanistan?

I too have thought self defence classes for girls would be a good idea. I did body combat a few years ago. I asked the instructor if the moves we were learning would help me out down a dark alley. She said they absolutely would.

Obviously if the man is intent he will definitely overpower you. But I suppose it's a question of degree.

But I also see the point that if you fight back, you could be hurt even more severely.

However our instructor was always delighted to show us how to go for a man's more sensitive areas...

"I think aggression and competitiveness are/seem to be more prominent in males because of testosterone though......"
Okay, still only partway through Cordelia Fine 'Testosterone Rex',.....

This summary article from elsewhere says:

"Taken together, the evidence suggests that the relatively modest doses of testosterone required for clinical purposes are not associated with changes in aggressive or angry behaviour. Moreover, reports of AAS abusers exhibiting high levels of aggressiveness and experiencing episodes of mania or hypomania after taking huge doses of AAS should not be compared with or extrapolated to the effects of therapeutic doses of testosterone."

and:

"In a comprehensive, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study (O’Connor et al., 2004), increasing testosterone levels in healthy young men did not significantly increase either the interactional (i.e. the frequency of sexual intercourse) or non-interactional (i.e. libido) components of sexual behaviour."

From this page: thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-22/edition-1/testosterone-and-male-behaviours

This page is also interesting, in terms of sex differences:

www.apa.org/research/action/difference.aspx

"For example, after participants in one experiment were told that they would not be identified as male or female, nor did they wear any identification, none conformed to stereotypes about their sex when given the chance to be aggressive. In fact, they did the opposite of what would be expected - women were more aggressive and men were more passive."

Women/girls are definitely taught not to be aggressive, and boys/men are definitely taught that to not be aggressive is a bad thing. We all remember what happened to boys who were seen to be sissies at school................

We know what testosterone does physically, in terms of what happens during development and what happens to genitalia and muscle mass etc, then I think it was assumed that other male behaviours that are supposed to be what males just do, were also linked to this simple clear chemical difference. So, if you've got testosterone, you're like this rather than like that, and the more testosterone, the more you are.............

Except it seems that it isn't actually that simple! And that it seems that oestrogen plays a similar role in the competitive interactions of women as testosterone plays for men. And women have testosterone too.....................

I was told that my son's lack of speech was because:

He was a boy.
I had a Norn Iron accent - despite the fact my two older children had no problem I countered? Oh well, they were girls and their brain assimilates language much better. To which I thought - what a pile of absolute rubbish! Get the help this boy absolutely needs!

They said the same about my son's handwriting.. I compared him to his younger brother and knew something wasn't quite right. Now he sees an OT who's making a huge difference, and the presumption (although he's 6 and too young to officially diagnose) is dyspraxia. If I'd have left it he'd have just been classed as the naughty, immature boy rather than actually helped to achieve what he's capable of given a bit of support (or in his case, heavy lifting - literally - wearing out his muscles to give him control!)

Prawn
I think sticking up for yourself verbally can be learned and that it's a mode of self defence against a lot of things.

Something extraordinarily dangerous like rape aside for now, on just a small level, I was listening to the radio about half an hour ago with some sort of political discussion. A man on it just talked over...and talked over... and talked over... and talked over ....relentlessly someone else who has supposed to be having their turn to speak (porbably a woman but one could not even hear.)

Maybe girls could be taught to do that when necessary in the face of men like that.

Also when kissing etc if a boy/man starts to do more than a girl wants or is ready for, she should have been taught to scream and shout "No stop[ that!" a and shove bite and scratch even if he is a nice boy/man she thought she loved.

Why? Anything else, like a quieter, "No" or slight pulling away and the boy truly feels he is actually getting the green light, that actually, as usual, no one could possibly not want him. That that is just a trick on the girl's/woman's part to get him to want her more etc.

That's why so many men think they have not raped people when they have.

Look on an AIBU about 'fuck boy'
A girl is being penalised for swearing (too aggressive) at a boy who was miming a sex act on her in class.

^ I left that thread alone because it seemed that most responses were about how she was deserving of punishment because she swore. but there is some really weird sexist shit on ABIU and chat right now

Datun, my friend and her bloke were hitching to India. They were picked up by a lorry driver in the wilds of Afghanistan (it was a long time ago). He was jolly and the atmosphere was relaxed. Then, when night fell, they stopped at a sort of remote wayside shack. Two more men were there and soon the atmosphere started changing. My friend had a blinding insight that things were going to get very nasty. Had these guys raped her and murdered them both she was pretty sure nothing would be done.

She was terrified but knew she had to do something. Her bloke seemed unaware of the change in temperature, which turned out to be helpful.

She'd watched how Afghani women behaved and she went into overdrive acting as super submissive as possible. She bustled to the back of the hut and made tea, started cooking, did all the domestic tasks she could, very busy and ostentatious - never staying still, never sitting down. Keeping moving was very important, obviously. She made herself small and showed exaggerated respect to all the men, speaking very sweetly and humbly, but with extra groveling offered to her partner. This was in an attempt to remind the Afghanis that she "belonged" to her partner. He was her lord and master.

Her plan was to get them to see her not as a stereotyped Western traveller but as what they would think of as a "good woman", and it worked. They had enough respect for the typical housewife persona she acted out to leave her alone.

I was struck with admiration for her courage and quick thinking. She was amazed that her partner hadn't picked up that they were in danger but, as it happened, it was helpful because he went on being relaxed. If he'd got defensive or shown fear it could have got nasty very quickly.

I'll describe one of my experiences if you like but because I'm describing nuances I'm aware that it's a bit long winded.

God prawn that woman is a genius. What courage!

And it makes perfect sense. But to allow her intuition and acting skills to take precedence over her fear is bloody impressive.

What did the boyfriend make of it afterwards? Did he agree, or did he remain oblivious and think she was overreacting?

And yes, if it's not too personal, I'd be interested in your account, but only if it's something you're happy to share.

Fascinating Prawn What ingenuity on her behalf, and rightly so. She went into full protection mode and got her and her partner out safely.

I too would like you to share your account.

Sorry if this has already come up, but here's a good video of Lise Elliot talking about pink/blue brain -

I think I may have told this story before. It was when I was young. I went to a party after the pubs closed and got talking to a guy who had just moved to my town. He was flirty but I explained I was in a committed relationship, though my man wasn't around that night. He backed off but we kept talking. It turned out he lived directly on my route home, and when I said I was off he said he'd walk with me.

Neither of us were drunk. I remember it as a pleasant walk, quite a long one, chatting in the deserted streets. When we reached his place he invited me in for coffee. I immediately reminded him that I wasn't up for anything but coffee. He said he knew that, but we were having such a good conversation and he didn't know anyone yet. So I went in.

He held the door open for me then, as he followed me in he locked the door. As I turned, alarmed, he said, very calmly, that I could have it the easy way or I could have it the hard way. My blood ran cold.

I became super cool. I told him that we had just left a party where he might be a stranger but I was not. Everyone there knew me and a few of them had been lovers of mine. They knew I wouldn't lie about rape. If I told them he'd done me any harm he'd have some angry men to deal with. I stood there, terrified but trying to seem cool.

Without a word he unlocked the door. The next day I went to all the pubs they used and told all my male friends what this creep had done.

I do not know exactly what happened. I do know he left town almost immediately. I was sorry not to be able to protect women at wherever he went next, but it wasn't feasible. The nastiest thing was that it was definitely a strategy he'd tried before. He expected it to work.

Datun, her bloke was amazed when she told him. Of course she couldn't tell him for at least 12/24 hours, until they had waved goodbye to the original lorry driver. Her partner was a rather vague sort of man and he just hadn't registered. He didn't doubt her, though. He was there when she told me the story, and he was hugely proud of her ingenuity.

prawn. Reading your story made my blood run cold.

The sheer premeditation. It's mind blowing.

And calmly giving you a choice between compliance or a beating.

It's so fucked up. It's SO fucked up.

I find the adrenaline in me starts to pump up when I read about this sort of thing. It's enraging.

I'm glad your friend's partner saw it what it was.

In the USSR, a revolutionary called Alexandra Kollontai womenineuropeanhistory.org/index.php?title=Alexandra_Kollontai
led women's rights policies in the state: free laundries, free clothes fixing, free child care, state restaurants and free love, women were entitled to comradely equality with which ever lovers they chose.

Although everyone hates the USSR and communism and the terrors of Stalin which were to come, it can be no co incidence that there were hundreds and thousands of eminent Soviet women in all sorts of fields segregated in the west for white men, for many years during the soviet rule.

I don't think that Soviet women scientists and engineers were debased with idiotic pink brain arguments, when the state had decided, initially to support equality in practical terms.

Prawn,
Your friend in Afghanistan was extraordinarily clever and brave. So were you that night.

Aropos you earlier point about verbal protection, you should see how on another thread about 'Fuck Boy' a girl is being blamed for using swear words to defend herself against pretty awful sexual harassment from a boy at school - GCSE year!!
This swearing is seen to be the absolute limit of over reactive bad behaviour! Talk about being forced to be pink. The responses from what I presume are other mothers are extraordinary.

This proves the point that in practice any woman who tries to defend herself properly and aggressively, with all her might, will be the one to be blamed.

prawn I am so sorry that happened to you, I got a shiver just reading that, you must have been terrified.

I am 'lucky' in that I barely remember anything of the time I was raped. as I was drugged. It came to me in little flashbacks that I did not know if they were actually real or not. This was a friend, and one I may have slept with anyway (if I wasn't in a relationship)...which made it harder to believe, if that makes sense? I still do not really know if I was 'raped' or if I was just drugged and played along...not sure if the second even counts as rape but I do know I was taken advantage of after being purposely spiked. I woke up in his bed, he told me I passed out from drink (had only had 3 malibus...) and he had put me to bed. I found it odd that I had only underwear on mind but I trusted him. I got home and ran a bath as I felt really achy. Dh came in while I was running the bath and pointed out many bruises and a few bite marks. I still don't understand how that all happened without me knowing. I have had no flashbacks of biting at all. I am guessing he was into rough sex

DH wanted to actually kill him. It took literally days to calm him down. The guy left and we have never seen him again. I still get flashbacks now though.

Kind of offtopic but the thread seemed to be going that way a bit and it feels great to get it off my chest tbh. I have never told anyone except DH and my father.

That is awful Wanking.

for wanking and prawn.

I used a similar strategy to your friend in Afghanistan albeit in much less serious circumstances. I had an acquaintance on the fringe of my friendship circle who we all thought of as really kick ass and strong and brave and admirable - the sort of woman who was doing a masters degree while working full time as a nurse (in a particularly demanding and technical area of nursing too). Her then boyfriend we all had down as "one of the good 'uns" - he came across as the gentle giant sort who pulled his weight yadda yadda. I'd been on my own with him a couple of times, including once when we bumped into each other while out running, and he slowed to half speed to chat to me for a mile or two in a companionable sort of way. Honestly no spidey senses going off, no red flags, no twitchy feeling in the gut at all. So when he offered to walk me home after a night down the pub I had no qualms about saying yes, and inviting him in for a cup of tea before he went home.

Then, very calmly and clinically he proceeded to tell me what their relationship was really like (god knows why - in hindsight with the knowledge gleaned from FWR and the relationships board here, I can only assume he was just going for the quick route to finding out if my boundaries were totally non-existent). The really chilling phrase I remember was "Jo's really arsey, I've had to break her" (not her real name, obviously). He then went on to say he thought they were in the process of breaking up and he wanted me to be his next girlfriend. And I had this really strong sense that this could end really violently if I got my response wrong in any way.

Instinctively I adopted a similar strategy to your friend (one which I've since read is recommended to victims of DV preparing to leave their partner): don't argue back, make yourself so small and insignificant you become invisible. It must have taken me the best part of an hour to talk him out the door, but the strategy (which made me feel really sick to have to do) was to keep saying "but you're such a strong man, you need a strong woman like Jo to be a sufficient challenge, I'm so weak and mousey I wouldn't provide any challenge at all." Vomit inducing, but it did the trick, I eventually got him out the door.

To my shame I made a decision not to tell my acquaintance - the guy knew where I lived, knew I lived alone, I was just too scared of the reprisals. They broke up soon after anyway.

Well done MOstly
This post and Prawns about her friend are extremely interesting. Is there any permanent board with this sort of experience (of tactics that worked with would be rapists) made easily accessible?

Woman12345
dives for cover
Don't dive!
I had never heard of Alexandra Kollontai before and what you said about the USSR making the best use of womens' brains makes sense.

KindDogsTail

If we're going to be able to use any of our brains, some one has to clean the toilets and match the socks.

She subverted, fought against male Marxism. Like all political careers hers ended badly, but yet another part of 'herstory' which is lost to us, until mums net.

"Kollantai became aware at an early stage of the dangers posed for Marxism by feminist ideology, which defined women’s emancipation in terms of legal and civil rights while ignoring or downplaying social and economic rights. Working-class women could potentially be won to organisations which appeared to be addressing their special concerns and the idea of a cross-class, united ‘sisterhood’ could, superficially, have a certain attraction".
Why, asked Kollantai in Communism and the Family, should only the rich be relieved of the burden of household labour such as cleaning, cooking, washing and mending"

By the way, who started the 1917 revolution?

Women

"Women demonstrating on International Women’s Day (8 March) were indeed the spark which ignited the 1917 revolution. Ten thousand marched, calling on workers from the factories to join them and demanding ‘Peace and bread’ and ‘Down with autocracy’"

1917revolution.org/alexandra-kollantai-pioneer-of-the-struggle-for-socialism-and-womens-liberation

And for other countries which value women's brains, which ever colour, how about Liberia and other 'developing countries.
owsd.net

It seems to be a peculiarly anglo saxon ailment this pink/blue brain stuff, clearly worrying some of them.

Thanks, Kind, but I'm not sure whether such a page would help ultimately. I feel like I adopted the only strategy open to me in the circumstances, but I don't know that the odds of it working were more than (or even as much as) 50-50. For instance, if he'd been trying to groom me for an abusive relationship, but decided rape would do as a consolation prize, I would have been toast. So I put it down largely to luck. If it helps other women, great, but I worry about the whole "magical thinking" thing that surrounds so much thinking on rape ("if I do/don't do XYZ I'll be alright"). Sadly there is no magic bullet.

(If werewolves need silver bullets I reckon rapists need bullets made from compressed turd cemented together with syphillitic semen).

Thank you for sharing Prawn Wanking and Mostly

The submissive defence seems to work on men who simply want to control.