Pink brains and blue brains

[minniebear]

So everything in me believes there is no such thing as a girl brain or a boy brain, and it bugs me a bit when family stereotype based on gender (I have two girls: girls are better behaved and easier to raise, boys are more interested in playing with toy cars and better at throwing, as examples).

Can anyone hit me with some facts to back up what I intuitively believe to be true (that gender differences such as those listed above are down to socialisation rather than biology)? Or am I wrong? I just want to feel I have it right in my own head. Im confident in the way I'm raising my girls and am aware of (and trying to avoid) gender stereotyping, and I'm not planning to rant and rave at the next person to bring all this up. I just want to better educate myself.

I don't support gendered brains for adults. However it is often said that girls develop cognitively more quickly as babies. Is this true? It makes them more likely to relate to dolls as 'people' i assume.

I had a boy after a girl. Girl was completely disinterested in the cars we gave her. Boy got given lots of cars for his first birthday which i hid immediately, as i judged we already had a sufficient balance. However he is completely fucking obsessed with the things. He also plays ball with himself with zero encouragement from me. I suppose i could have socialised him but unlikely. Just his personality i expect?

I always loved playing with toy cars. I used to line them all up, making traffic jams, pretending to be on motorways with them and so forth. Had some lovely replica cars, my favourite was an excellently designed Golf. I also used to proudly tell my grandparents what make each car we walked past was when they looked after me. One of my brothers (both younger) also liked my toy cars, one had no interest. One loves computer games, the other and I have no interest. It's all individual personalities. Generally, it's no surprise children start conforming to what's expected of them for being a girl or boy when they're pushed into it so early, so many parents buying the "appropriate" toys from the section for one or the other, I've read of nursery and primary school staff treating girls and boys differently and telling them which toys to play with etc.

Having been a feminist since my teens I was aware of the bias society puts on boy and girl babies. I reckoned the world around them would encourage masculine qualities in my two DS so I poured snuggly affection into them, called them things like pumpkin and rose petal, encouraged them as toddlers to be kind, to share, all the qualities supposedly typical of girls.

Prawn - I've always been similar with my girls-lots of outdoorsy play and encouraging risk taking etc etc. But then as a SAHM I also worry that a lot of their role play features stereotypical "housework" (doing the washing, cooking, cleaning, all of which they see me do, as much as I try to intersperse it with role modelling more active pursuits). It bugs me. I suppose they do also see their dad doing housework when I go to work and he looks after them at the weekends though.

I also wonder if the gender bias contributes to the fact that friends with boys often say their concentration isn't as good as a girl's would be ("He would never sit and do sticking and cutting for that long, boys are far more active"). I taught in a boys school for six years and found the differences between boys in terms of their abilities to sit still and focus were similar to the differences between boys and girls when I taught in a co-ed school.

This probably isn't too relevant but the "sitting still" comment reminded me of an exchange I briefly overheard when I walked past a couple walking with their young children a year or so ago. They were all running around and being lively, three boys and a girl, the girl ran into the parents and the mother said, only to her, "will you stop crashing into us, if you want to go to Westfield [shopping centre] be good and stay nice and quiet" whilst the boys continued to run about shouting. It's one instance I only saw fleetingly but I imagine she'd feel more compelled to show she could sit and concentrate on something for a long period than the boys, given that.

So looking at a swatches for upholstery, curtains, for instance women will be studying two similar patterns, seeing them differently when a man will think they're identical - "They look exactly the same to me, they're both beige!" (leading to 'women care more about this stuff')

Do you not think it could also be that this is seen as a woman's task- picking furnishings, homemaking. It's possible that men can see the difference, they just don't think it's their "job" to be interested.

It's something I'd do. I hate shopping and furnishings. My mum often drags me round the shops because I'm female and therefore enjoy itasks my opinion, and I really don't care whether one beige pattern is nicer than another beige pattern. So I can't be bothered to look closely and offer an opinion. So I'll say they both look the same to me as a way of getting out of the deliberations, and in the hope she'll just make a bloody decision and we can go home.

I don't support gendered brains for adults. However it is often said that girls develop cognitively more quickly as babies. Is this true? It makes them more likely to relate to dolls as 'people' i assume

Girls are more likely to be expected to play with dolls, given dolls, asked about their "babies", while the same is discouraged in boys. So how do you establish whether girls develop cognitively more quickly- is it due to socialisation and practice at playing babies, or is it "pink brain"?

I think you can win the argument without recourse to the whole nature vs nurture debate. The problem is their isn't yet a consensus scientifically, just a lot of studies -some which indicate one thing and some another. These debates usually result in references and links thrown back and forth ad nauseum. I would also be very wary about talking about the brain in terms of certainties we don't even know basics like where does consciousness come from? What happens when we sleep etc.

Talking about male/female brains is a little bit premature no matter where you come down on with the issue. For me the argument was decided some 2000 years ago when Socrates asserted that whatever differences existed between men and women they were so slight that women should have access to the same opportunities and choices and men.

I think a robust examination of history and culture reveals that women's contributions have been colossal despite the handicap of sexism. The argument practically makes itself. In terms of what toys/colours/clothes children I think makes largely little difference. The ancient Greeks identified pink with little boys as pink was seen as an immature red which was linked with Mars and hence masculine, and the Greeks still managed to be sexist towards women. What IS of more significance is that boys and girls are encouraged to play together with a full spectrum of toy cars, dolls, outdoor physical games.

My 4 year old little boy gets a full mix of play and toys, some of his interests are typical boy stuff some is typical girl but really at the end of the day the distinction is meaningless at this age. This segregation is pretty powerful though, my niece of about the same age told him he couldn't wear a frozen t shirt because he was a boy. He was pretty unphased by it as Elsa is one of his favourite characters, we sing the songs in the car and it was one of his favourite films for awhile.

One thing that always strikes me as bizarre as when he was younger and had longer hair people often said what a lovely daughter I had, if I pointed out he was a little boy they would be mortified as if they had committed some grave offence I would always have to assure the there is no harm I'd have been just as happy with a girl.

Personally my little boy only does the racing round like a mad thing 'typical boy' behaviour stuff when he's short on sleep. Making sure he gets a few more zzzs usually sorts that right out. I wonder if all this excused boy behaviour is actually a misdiagnosed sleep deficit. Which might also explain why they lag behind at school on average too?

I did a masters research project when I was teacher training about gender differences in children in the classroom. It was odd, as although I hate gender inequality, boys were significantly "better" at mathematics whereas the girls came out as being more advanced in literacy. On further examination, girls were more likely to choose activities like craft, creative writing and colouring where the boys were more likely to choose a science experiment or outdoor play (obviously not all). When I was training, we were taught that girls and boys are very, very different with regards to how their brains work and to teach accordingly, but make all activities available to both girls and boys so that children were offered the choice.

It's hard then, to challenge gender issues in the classroom when the collective view is that boys and girls are very different. Also, even if construction equipment is made available for girls, posters show female builders and male midwives for example, that's all well and good but then children have to line up boys v. girls after playtime, some are separated in PE etc.

It was all very interesting.

In single sex schools, this doesn't happen. In my school, Maths is one of the two most taken A Levels (and the grades last year were nearly all A* and A) and the STEM subjects are all well taken with many girls going on to study them at university. In the boys' schools I have good knowledge of, English Literature is one of the most taken and the Art and Music departments are very large. Boys are not "better" at Maths, let alone "significantly better", that's complete damaging nonsense, as is the idea boys are interested in science experiments and "outdoor play" whilst girls aren't. At my girls' primary school the worst thing which could possibly happen in a day was a "wet break" when we couldn't run around outside and had to stay indoors.

Girls and boys are not "very, very different" in terms of brains, if teachers are being taught this it's quite worrying.

I trained as a teacher and the attitudes were appalling. From belittling girls for being bitchy and "girly" (I mean what the hell else are they supposed to be?!) to laughing at the idea that boys might be interested in anything perceived to be slightly girly.

It was depressing.

The socialisation starts so young anxious. I had a few children in my reception class who were adamant about what were girls and boys things and if they were a boy they wouldn't be seen doing the girl things.

On the other hand most of the boys loved playing in the kitchen and would happily dress up in the princess costumes.

Re. the craft vs. science thing have a look at any Argos catalogue, these are heavily gendered - craft stuff is pink, science stuff is more 'manly' colours. Many children have been socialised into craft or science according to their sex before they even start school.

There was a documentary by Professor Alice Roberts a year or so ago which featured at one point her going into a (mixed) school and talking to a group of GCSE students about A Level choices. None of the girls said they'd consider STEM subjects or careers and the main reasons given were "they're boys' subjects" and "they're too hard for girls". It was quite sad they were convinced they were "for boys", girls struggle in them and it became a sort of 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. As I said, that this doesn't occur in single sex schools shows it's nonsense.

It was also very frustrating they associated a subject being perceived as difficult as meaning it was for boys. This kind of notion starts from a very young age: www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/education-research-girls-believe-genius-talent-male-trait-new-york-university-science-a7548621.html

My daughter plays with all toys at home, actually much more with cars and trains than anything else, and she completely ignores her doll and buggy. But at her pre school the staff say she plays with the buggy and dolls most. When I visit I notice that the car and run around areas are filled with only boys and I wonder if DD notices and this puts her off. Or if the nursery workers are subtly leading her in a more 'girly' direction. I don't mind what she plays with, but it bothers me that she seems to be much more 'gender conforming' at nursery and I wonder why that is.

the 'battle of the sexes' episode 14 of the Infinite Monkey cage on iplayer has Prof Sophie Scott give a clear argument as to why the male/female brain is a myth of 99.2% of people. Sometimes it's easier/is a nice change to have someone talking about it rather than reading studies!

anxious I did a masters in Ed Psych…and we found that boys were not better than girls at maths, but instead that girls were more likely to have 'maths anxiety' which accounted for much of the attainment differences in timed on the spot tests (but not usually in exams).

There are tests that can be done to find out 'innate number sense'…usually involves a quick flash of coloured dots and a person has to say whether more are 1 colour than another. These sort of tests show that male and female have equal ability.

I can't get academic articles that have functioning links unfortunately.

I've been looking at secondary schools for my son and it's made me quite aware of the gender roles. We have a mix of single sex and mixed schools nearby and if I had a pound for every parent who has said they want their daughter to go to a mixed school "because girls are bitchy"... I have no doubt some girls can be mean. Some boys can also be mean. And the presence of boys doesn't magically stop mean girls being mean, surely?

Also my younger son - not the one who's going to secondary - does dancing. I was interested that at the all-boys school there were several boys taking dance GCSE, at the mixed school - which has amazing dancing facilities which my son was very excited about - the teacher admitted they'd only had one boy take the GCSE and most boys who choose the option end up changing. Obviously dancing isn't as important to life as maths, but I just wanted to show it works both ways.

This is so interesting. I definitely agree that there was an equal number of boy/girl top mathematicians in the co-ed school I taught in. I suppose it depends on your definition of intelligence-I find the arts and English just as challenging as maths/science.

Dangermouse I'll check that podcast out, it would definitely make a change to listen rather than read.

Dervel I wonder about what you said about a sleep deficiency. In my personal experience (not generalising any further than my experience) the boys I know were expected to sleep without any assistance. They were less likely to be cuddled/rocked to sleep, and sleep trained earlier. They were left to "romp about" in the cot, or to wind down, or to get their energy down-some were left to cry so they'd man up. I personally (again not generalising beyond my experience) know more boys who are more clingy/suffer with more separation anxiety, and don't sleep as well. Just hypothesising, but I do wonder if there's a link?

KathyBeale few things irk me more on the subject of schools than people who come out with "girls are bitchy", "girls' schools must be awful" and so forth. It just isn't the case at all. Girls at my school (and others as I know girls at other girls' schools) are generall supportive, kind, and fantastic peers. Of course not 100% of pupils are but nor will they at any school, regardless of sex. It's grounded in misogyny and it's quite dispiriting that parents spout this nonsense.

I work at a girls school and a lot of the teachers spout that nonsense too.

Are you a teacher? I'd be horrified if any of my teachers came out with that to one another. I'd be surprised if they do at my school, they mostly seem very positive and committed.

Try being a female autistic. Everyone including professionals talk about you having a 'male brain'.

That's got to be infuriating. Teabagtits.

ugh teabag sounds like the professionals need to investigate 'neuromyths'