Pink brains and blue brains

[minniebear]

So everything in me believes there is no such thing as a girl brain or a boy brain, and it bugs me a bit when family stereotype based on gender (I have two girls: girls are better behaved and easier to raise, boys are more interested in playing with toy cars and better at throwing, as examples).

Can anyone hit me with some facts to back up what I intuitively believe to be true (that gender differences such as those listed above are down to socialisation rather than biology)? Or am I wrong? I just want to feel I have it right in my own head. Im confident in the way I'm raising my girls and am aware of (and trying to avoid) gender stereotyping, and I'm not planning to rant and rave at the next person to bring all this up. I just want to better educate myself.

What about other species? Are there gendered gorilla brains? Or peacock? Or mouse?

If so, why are humans any different?

Humans are only another animal species, after all.

So how do you establish whether girls develop cognitively more quickly- is it due to socialisation and practice at playing babies, or is it "pink brain"?

I meant that people say they talk earlier, and interact more at an earlier age. Is this scientifically verified? I doubt being given dolls would cause this.

Prawn: I reckoned the world around them would encourage masculine qualities in my two DS so I poured snuggly affection into them, called them things like pumpkin and rose petal, encouraged them as toddlers to be kind, to share, all the qualities supposedly typical of girls.

I did that, too. We had dolls and pushchairs, handbags and dress up shoes.

My boys are still (very sweet, empathic,) geeky carbon copy clones of their dad. All my music, drama, sociability passed them by completely. Sigh.

Though DS1 voluntarily, without asking, cleaned his bathroom for use by visitors when our downstairs loo was out of action.

Powerful message

dementedcommuter

That poor woman. And kudos to her for the self awareness she has displayed.

I read Helen Highwater's account of how she came to terms with the fact that she is a man. It takes a great deal of courage and some in-depth analysis, soul-searching.

And it may not be the answer for everyone. But we are treating the symptoms, not the problem when the body is modified to reflect inner turmoil.

Analysis and psychotherapy should be the first port of call. I don't understand how it's not obvious.

Going back to how we raise our children, I've been thinking and I definitely believe feminists can make a difference. By making ourselves aware how even newborns are treated differently according to which sex they are before we become parents we can try to redress the balance.

I know girls are supposed to be better at language so I never stopped talking to my DS. As a consequence they were praised for their vocabularies. I opted for gender neutral clothes and colours, and offered a range of toys. When DS2 was born, DS1 spent months pushing his baby doll round the garden. But he wasn't only copying me. Their DF was a very engaged father and a good role model.

I tried all I can to go against gender norms. However now they are adult I can see the effects of my upbringing are pretty mixed. DS1 is an alpha male. He looks very like my DH who was just such another. He won't talk about his feelings. However when a friend of his was raped she asked him to go with her for her video statement which says something very good about him. DS2 embodies many stereotypical feminine qualities like unselfishness and concern for others, but then so do his friends. There seems to be no shortage of caring, empathic young men who are in touch with their feelings. It's like to like when it comes to friendships, I find.

I only wish DS1 would talk about his. He still hasn't recovered fully from his DF's death, many years ago.

The one thing they have in common, and which isn't true of most of their friends, is very long term girlfriends to whom they are devoted.

The one thing they have in common, and which isn't true of most of their friends, is very long term girlfriends to whom they are devoted.

That's your influence, right there prawn.

I also have two sons. Both brought up in exactly the same way. Both polar opposites of one another. I've jokingly assured them on many occasions that they do have the same father!

And I agree, although it is sometimes like a salmon swimming upstream when they go to school, feminists can indeed influence their menfolk's attitude to women.

Yesterday, for the first time ever my toddler dd asked me if something was "for boy's". I'm trying to bring her up not to see things that way but it's so hard when nearly everyone else is saying otherwise.

Though the item in question was a pink hat so she hasn't exactly got the 'rules' right yet!

I had a professor at Uni (a Russell Group Uni no less) who maintained that the reason girls now out performed boys educationally was because they were better at learning. He said no other explanation made sense. He wasn't a self described feminist, his specialty was education. I can expand on his reasoning if anybody is interested.

At the time I was lib femmy and outraged by this but I couldn't fault his logic (I tried very hard). It was a while ago now so who knows? It did make me think though.

I suppose my point is that I am entirely open to the idea that there is more to socialisation at play when it comes to behavioural and cognitive differences between the sexes. The problem isn't that we are different, the problem is the view that one set of characteristics are superior.

Thanks for that, Datun. I do hope so, and I hope they'll be as happy as I was with their DF.

If it's connected to socialization, Miffer, I wonder if it has anything to do with the arrogance of toxic masculinity. Men are brought up to challenge authority, which may predispose them not to knuckle down and just learn stuff.

Men tend to assume they know better, even when they know very little. We see it so often it's even got a name - mansplaining. Women are more humble, eager to learn and aware of their ignorance, so more open to learning. What do you think?

We bought DD a garage for her first birthday because at the time she was obsessed with cars. Some family members raised eyebrows but she loved it and I've always been a 'toys are for everyone' kind of person.

A few years later, DS was around 11 months old and was fascinated with cars and trucks and I remember thinking "oh, I wonder if it's because he's a boy" completely forgetting that DD was exactly the same at that age.

I thought I was immune to that kind of crap, but I was wrong.

Prawn

Maybe, I did bring up the issues around masculinity but I was focused on the research into working class/West Indian boys. His counter to this was we see the patterned mirrored across all ethnic groups (with some exception ie Bangladeshi girls who have specific barriers), classes and internationally.

From my frivolous point of view it would seem odd that men have a physical advantage but we are otherwise equal in all other senses.

With my baby son who is obsessed with vehicles, i think - did i socialise him to like them? Or is it just his preference? Certainly I've made no effort to encourage him in that direction. He likes the vroom noises, which i can't relate to at all.

I certainly don't want to be one of those mothers that don't let girls access feminine stuff or boys access masculine stuff. I just want a good balance available for each of them. It's hard.

Miffer, I believe women have physical advantages. We have a higher pain threshold and better colour vision. We endure harsh conditions - heat, cold - better. There are others but those were the first I remembered. And now I'm worried I've misremembered because I'm in a hurry, and because I have problems cut n pasting on my new phone.

I thought the pain threshold was a myth but we had a higher number of pain receptors or something? Anyway your main point (that women have physical advantages of our own) is well taken.

Slightly off topic (though not totally) as it is to do with stereotypes.

I get irritated with talk of the feminisation of education e.g. how girls are now doing better than boys in many subjects because they are conscientious and do their homework whereas boys are 'sudden death" exam merchants.

Being really ancient I took the 11+ exam in the mid 1950s - a sudden death exam. Guess what? Because girls did better and a roughly 50/50 split of boys/girls was wanted in grammar schools the pass mark was set higher for girls than boys to achieve the 50/50.

To me that just illustrates what a crock of shit this 'girls are like this, boys are like that' is.....

NB: this is well documented. A google search might still bring up the details.

Whoput

My professor said that every developed nation followed a similar pattern. Womens "lib" changing expectations > Women start to have careers > the generation that follows starts trouncing the boys at school. By the way I keep saying "My professor said" because I didn't actually fact check him but rather just trusted his info so I cant cite sources.

I haven't got the references to hand, sorry, but a fab book 'Shattered' The Illusion of Gender Equality in Parenting or some similar title covers some of the anthropological theory in the first chapter. It hypothesises - or refers to the hypothesis - that mothers 'mother' boys to create dependency. This is in preparation for when they become a father, are dependent on their wife and thus unlikely to stray when she's pregnant, physically dependent on the father and vulnerable to abandonment. None of which is relevant to the contemporary society, of course, but I thought it interesting as a representation of socialisation over biology. Wife Work too is very interesting for similar reasons.

Yesterday, for the first time ever my toddler dd asked me if something was "for boy's". I'm trying to bring her up not to see things that way but it's so hard when nearly everyone else is saying otherwise.

I am having issues with DH and this at the moment. Its causing a hell of a lot of arguments. DS (2) keeps asking for a barbie kinder egg. Fuck knows why there are pink and blue kinder eggs anyway but thats besides the point. DH keeps telling him no, that the superhero one is for boys. Its doing my fucking head in so much. Why can't the ppor lad have a bloody barbie kinder egg. DH has no problem with DD picking the superhero one instead of barbie though when she choses to

I am sure there are gender stereotypes we impose on our children.

Nevertheless I do not believe biological sex has no effect on how men and women behave. We have no problem seeing a difference between the behaviours of the different sexes in animals, even in the wild, where there can have been no influencing their behaviour.

Different phases of menstrual cycles for example can set up particular behaviours, such as frenzied house tidying or shopping sprees for certain things which seem essential at the time. Or what about the nesting urge before having a baby? These show themselves as behaviours often called 'female'.

Human male 'rutting' surely finds expression in things like bigger better cars.

What? Your menstrual cycle makes you tidy or shop? Is that an actual science thing, or just your own observations?

Different phases of menstrual cycles for example can set up particular behaviours, such as frenzied house tidying

I wish. I need some of them hormones.

What Assassinated? Do you not find you behave in different ways at different times of a cycle? Here is another behaviour I didn't mention too: www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/11/science.fashion
Have you not heard of 'nesting' at a certain phase of pregnancy?

www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2016/11/pms_might_be_a_cultural_syndrome_not_a_biologic_one.html

Food for thought.

I absolutely don't notice a difference in my behaviour in the way you describe depending on my "cycle". Also the nesting instinct didn't kick in with me, in fairness both my kids were prem so maybe that's why.

Evo pysch is such a load of retconned untestable bullshit anyway.