Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour

No need to apologies for the link. I did wonder if it was a bit much to ask you to explain but I am glad I did now otherwise we would have missed that excellent cross post!

I'm telling you, as respectfully as I can, that your values are inconsistent and hypocritical

No you're not.
What you are actually doing is enjoying wasting my time by engaging in abstract hypothetical debate with me on issues that are of genuine concern to me.
Ie- you are being a dick/prick/tosser/that kind of thing.

love that link! Is this why we've moved on from "middle class feminists don't care about working class women" to "women can be child abusers too". We are obviously winning at socratic logic. Thanks guardian. How amusing!

we would have missed that excellent cross post!

Well Quentin, I've actually agreed with quite a lot I've read - including arguments for the Nordic law and I've even argued for the regulation of the porn industry. Real red pill stuff that eh?

I have however pointed out that in order for these ethics to hold, they must be extended to the porn industry (which is absolutely a form of filmed prostitution) and women should be vigilant not to stoop to the same level as men in the belief that it is empowering or that the same restraints they rightly argue should be applied to male sexual behaviour should not apply to themselves.

That is all.

FYI I would have rapists executed and pornographers thrown in jail.

And child molesters also should die.

It's an act of abuse that requires a sexual interest in children and a degree of calculation.

So, to add to the list of things Indy knows precisely fuck all about, let's add CSA/CSE

Xenophile, are you saying people who sexually abuse children are not sexually interested in children? Or that they are not devious in their abuse of them?

That's a stretch.

Very few posters on here are pro-porn or think porn is empowering.

On female abusers they should be held accountable. As far as I am concerned an adult woman who does so has no excuse whatsoever for her actions, whether or not she was also herself abused. I do not assume that if the abuse was in concert with a man that the woman must have been merely an accomplice rather than a main player.

I don't know what relevance this has to the thread. Most violence and abuse is carried out by men- a tiny percentage is carried out by women.

Yup and there is the nub of it, absolutely no respect for human life. You either respect all human life or none of it. By all means lock pedophiles away so they are no danger, but to so casually snuff out a human life tells me you couldn't find your arse with an atlas when it comes to ethics independent.

If nothing else pedophiles are a resource we can set top psychological minds on to understand the condition and mitigate and better understand it. In turn so we can protect children better. In addition pedophiles were also frequently subject to abuse themselves, so I'd like the insights into that mindset to better help victims heal and avoid perpetuating the abuse.

You have little respect for human life and even less for women. Good day sir I hope you reflect and evolve beyond your current state.

inde you have spent your energies indirectly accusing us of being hypocritical bourgeoisie, hypocritcal porn-users and hypocritical sex-abuse defenders - all because we name the problem as male violence against women.
Where do you get off on that in a feminist forum?

Xenophile that list sounds like a lot of work. It might be easier to make a list of things he does know about?

Looks a little something like this:

I'm saying that people would abuse, degrade and objectify others for their own sexual gratification - are evil. All the men and the minority of women.

I'm saying they should rot in hell.

Only that.

I'm saying that people would abuse, degrade and objectify others for their own sexual gratification - are evil. All the men and the minority of women.

If you started with that you could have saved a whole lot of time and effort.

I'm saying that people would abuse, degrade and objectify others for their own sexual gratification - are evil. All the men and the minority of women

No argument with that.

I don't however support the death penalty.

I am not sure about evil though - some people are just following norms without giving it much thought, just like I don't think people who were raised with slaves in their home were evil - it was just normal to them. I'm not going to condemn everyone who has ever used porn as worthy of the death penalty. Sometimes they are just clueless about the harms and quite likely to change their behaviour when they learn.

That was an epic cross post guardian! glad i stayed with the thread long enough to see that

Its also good to have a name to put to that tactic, I confess I've always had a more positive view of the socratic method. I've tried to use it myself sometimes, but I mean more to try to get someone to draw their own conclusions in a logically consistent way, rather than to gotcha them at the end. Interesting to ponder on that though.

I have no interest in the death penalty for any crime, if that's where we're going with this thread now. I'm not sure that's a feminist position, though as much as it is a decent human being position.

I've always had a more positive view of the socratic method
Of course it is great when people are engaging in it together because they want to arrive at a truth - but really annoying when people use it as intellectual sport over people who they patronisingly think need a bit of guidance towards the truth as they see it. Think bastard lawyer making someone stumble over their words and say something they didn't mean and wasn't true in the dock.

OK, I was being a bit extreme.

But I do believe pimps, rapists and those who gain sexual gratification from children are evil.

And in an ideal world, pornographers would face jail sentences.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we've seen you on this board before, inde. I remember a(nother?) passionate marxist who was writing a book and fancied testing out his theories on a feminist audience to help refine his theory that feminism was inextricably linked with capitalism and thus irrelevant to coming socialist utopia of his dreams.

Boring then, boring now.

I thought that too pooch.

I'm not a Marxist; neither am I against capitalism in all its manifestations. I agree with Marx on an analytical level, but I don't believe in a revolutionary proccess.

The point is this. If global markets are completely deregulated, and if there is furthermore a deregulated 'attention economy' online, then a vast market in commercialised sex will develop. Inevitably.

You do not have to be a Marxist to see this.

Some feminists don't see this as an essential problem. They think that there can be forms of commodified sex which are liberating for women. They're wrong.

Also my point is a moral one. Porn and prostitution are not just wrong because they oppress women (which they indubitably do) but they are wrong in and of themselves. So even if a women is creating porn for a female audience, she is committing an immoral action. She is making money out of sex.

You are merailing a feminist thread, as a man, and it's fucking annoying.

You are merailing a feminist thread, as a man, and it's fucking annoying
I like that term 'ME!-railing' very apt.

Ponificating on the 'moral wrongness' of different acts of violence against women and girls in a detached way, isn't what I get my kicks out of.

However, identifying the male attitudes and behaviours underpinning and fuelling violence against woman and girls, and finding strategies to eradicate MVAWG, are of much greater interest.

Hence my posting in a feminist forum rather than a moral philosophy forum.

Maybe you could find yourself a more suitable forum elsewhere inde?

There's nothing detached about my condemnation of sexual violence against women or girls.

I would have these men put to death.

I would have all perverts annihilated.