Ben Shapiro

[SheDoneAlreadyDoneHadHerses]

Not sure where this fits in UK statistics but applauds

Another thing you're missing Datun is a lot of your illogical thinkers are men.

I wonder how many women seeking abortion would say they had free and full control over their sexuality? And how many would say they had been pressured / forced, and how many others would say their partner had led them to believe a pregnancy would be wanted when actually he didn't want the responsibility of a child.

The trouble for me with linking contraception and abortion is that contraception, consent, responsible sexual behaviour, etc is the responsibility of both men and women. Abortion is a woman's choice alone. The two aren't the same.

Sorry just realised how patronising that first bit was! Apologies!!

battles

I don't disagree with anything in your post.

Another way of reducing unwanted pregnancies would be to improve contraception by either making current female contraception more effective or providing a good, non barrier male contraceptive.

In the Netherlands they promote the belt and braces method in sex ed classes because real world use of condoms is about 82% effective (98% effective with perfect use but teenagers don't tend to achieve that) and real world use of contraceptive pill, particularly for younger women trying different forms of contraception for the first time is around 97%. This creates a real life effectiveness of 99.5% which means there's still a number of unwanted pregnancies at a population level.

The best way to improve these odds is not to focus on the female contraceptive which is pretty damn effective, but to look at the major issues with condoms and find a more appropriate male contraceptive. Apparently though policy makers don't think men will accept that.

The bit I am struggling with is it not logical for me to think there are some people who are fool hardy?

Are some people foolhardy? Yup, everyone. You and me for instance. Do you drink alcohol? I do - yet I know that it is harmful to women, even in small amounts (the possible small cardiovascular benefit is outweighed by the cancer risk). Do I exercise every day? No. Did I eat a non-nutritionist approved supper of popcorn and slightly stale Fruit & Fibre last night because I couldn't be arsed to go to Sainsbury's? Guilty as charged.

You need to let go of the idea that there is a binary distinction between good, logical decisions about health/wellbeing/sex and bad, illogical ones. Obviously there are extremes at either end of the spectrum: it is better to live on grilled vegetables than nothing but Mars Bars. It is worse to drink 2 bottles of vodka a day than have a tipple only at Christmas. But most decisions are somewhere in the middle. And deciding what is logical and good is by no means objective.

Applying a filter of "Does this woman deserve an abortion?", based on whether she has been fool-hardy, is as misogynistic as asking whether a rape victim was asking for it.

Applying a filter of "Does this woman deserve an abortion?", based on whether she has been fool-hardy, is as misogynistic as asking whether a rape victim was asking for it.

Except that's not what I said, neither do I think it.

It's a little hard to engage with you shiney as you are connecting dots that are not there. Especially ones that I have not provided.

I can see that the connection of those dots can be used by the anti-abortionists to justify their position. That is not what I am doing.

It seems to me that there is, on this thread, a value that is being attached to abortion. That value being 'good'. Indeed previous posts have said just that.

I agree that abortion is a 'good solution' to an unintended problem. But I don't agree that abortion is intrinsically good.

Therefore I would wish for a way to limit it.

I have listened to what everyone has said. I see a very definite opinion that it is wrong to attach a judgement to unintended pregnancy. Which I agree with.

But I would still like to know if there is anything further to be done to limit unintended pregnancies. Without judgement, without it being any kind of condition to be able to access an abortion.

This is becoming something of an intellectual exercise. Because i'm getting the impression that unintended pregnancies are simply a fact of life, are irrelevant and not to be talked about because it interferes too much with campaigning for the right to abortion.

Maybe we are at our absolute limit in terms of sex education, using contraception, and there really is absolutely nothing to be done.

We can do no more and that's why it's irrelevant.

Because i'm getting the impression that unintended pregnancies are simply a fact of life, are irrelevant and not to be talked about because it interferes too much with campaigning for the right to abortion.

I don't think that's the case, Datun, from what I know a lot of pro-choice campaigners also argue for better sex education in schools (something anti-abortion campaigners, unsurprisingly, also oppose).

Because i'm getting the impression that unintended pregnancies are simply a fact of life, are irrelevant and not to be talked about because it interferes too much with campaigning for the right to abortion

For me personally, how the unintended pregnancy came about is irrelevant to my pro-choice position.

As I said before, I doubt you'll find many (any?) pro-choicers who are opposed to contraception. But it's a separate thing to abortion. Connected yes but a separate topic and a separate campaign.

And I agree with shiny about male non-barrier contraceptive. I'm sure when Caitlin Moran talked about her abortion - when married with two children - she stated that if you were to profile the average woman seeking abortion it would be someone like her, in their 30s, married, with children. Not sure how true that is, but if it is true, probably the most effective way to tackle that is a LARC for men.

Maybe we are at our absolute limit in terms of sex education, using contraception, and there really is absolutely nothing to be done.

There is also another way of looking at this besides education and contraception-

Reducing violence against women, reducing poverty, improving childcare, income equality, medical research. These are all feminist issues and are all part of the same thing. This discussion is about limiting abortion though and I am not sure that sex education is any more relevent than any of those other things.

Mumsnet has been a mine of information for me, for several years. And I appreciate everyone engaging. It's given me food for thought.

I actually think we're pretty much on the same page. With varying degrees. Which is a good thing.

Sometimes with these things, the very devil is in the detail. The external factors that aren't immediately apparent.

So I am taking on board what everyone has said. My opinion has evolved over the course of this thread.

I may not reach the exact same place as everyone else, but that will have to be between me and my conscience.

However, I am now more aware of the issues so I'll go forward with that and keep learning.

i'm getting the impression that unintended pregnancies are simply a fact of life
I think when 1 in 6 pregnancies are unplanned this statement is pretty much accurate
Like a lot of reproductive stuff though, women are conditioned not to talk about it by assumptions like unplanned = unwanted , contraception is infallible, pregnant women are somehow reckless etc etc

I may not reach the exact same place as everyone else, but that will have to be between me and my conscience

I think I am in the same place as you. I found this thread rather strange; some of us are pro-choice; have supported campaigns for pro-choice ; have donated money to charties such as ASN but have personal reservations, which we were clear we were not seeking others to agree with, nor even express in a context outside this forum, but that somehow is unacceptable.

Lass! We agree on something!

High five?

I quite often see posts by you I agree with!

Yum, thanks!

Hmm, well, many anti-abortion campaigners would also argue for reducing unwanted pregnancies, but they say that the way to achieve that is abstinence, as that is the most effective contraception. (They are right on that - I think the % of women who get pregnant from activity other than straightforward PIV must be very very small)

Sorry, pressed post before quite finishing my train of thought!

Of course it all links back to the whore / madonna system of control of women: if we are virgins (or otherwise non-sexually active); if we get pregnant in a non-ideal situation, it must be because we are whores...

Lass

"I found this thread rather strange; some of us are pro-choice; have supported campaigns for pro-choice ; have donated money to charties such as ASN but have personal reservations, which we were clear we were not seeking others to agree with, nor even express in a context outside this forum, but that somehow is unacceptable"

Yes I agree. To have reservations means we lack 'guts', as it was put and are not quite feminist enough. Bollocks to that, I'm not being forced to swallow someone else's views anymore than I will force mine on others

Bollocks to that

Okay, you keep on with your "ethical issues" and ignore the countless stories from women who've needed abortions for all sorts of reasons. If you have ethical issues with abortion just don't have one. Many women find it difficult to talk about their abortions or shake off a feeling of guilt (see a quote I posted earlier), if they were to read comments about how what they were doing is perceived to be "ethically questionable" not least from feminists I doubt that'd help much.

Also many women of course don't feel guilty or bad about having an abortion, rightly not as they have nothing to feel bad about. It's a vital right and gives women much needed control over our bodies. It's not a "necessary evil" but hugely important to women's rights and independence, something there should be no stigma nor embarrassment around. I will go to oppose the ghastly protesters outside my nearest clinic again this weekend who seek to intimidate and harass users constantly.

This thread suggests that there are people who are pro-choice - thank goodness everyone has the right to an abortion; women’s autonomy over their bodies is the most important element - and people who are pro-choice - having an abortion can sometimes be the least bad option, they should be legal but what about the babies….

This is the reason abortion is not spoken about openly. Caitlin Moran was bold to speak out about hers and say she has no regrets because the expectation is that women should feel torn about making the decision and that comes from the anti-abortion groups and pro-choice groups. I found myself in the same situation in my mid-thirties and having a termination of pregnancy is a secret that DH and I will take to the grave. The only dithering and deliberation I did was due to the humiliation and shame of finding myself in that position having being smugly competent in avoiding pregnancy all my life up to that point. I felt that way because I knew I was supposed to act that way. Having an abortion is not something I would ever admit to even in a room full of women who were pro-choice because I would still feel judged and as though I had to justify my reasons for needing/wanting the termination.

For those who consider themselves pro-choice but also express misgivings about when life begins or how many abortions are too many, or in what circumstances they are socially acceptable - this viewpoint has consequences. It ought not to be unexpected that other posters bring some ethical analysis to the thread. It is valuable for people to examine why they hold their viewpoints and to see if some of their beliefs are held up by false facts or prejudices or lack of logic. e.g. those who think life begins at conception – are you also opposed to the types of contraception that could prevent implantation of an embryo.

avoiding an unwanted pregnancy all my life

namechangednaturally

I'm sorry you were in the position where you were unable to confide.

I am vehemently pro-choice and I would support you unequivocally. Indeed I have done just that with a young woman.

I am unwavingly, fully convicted, not-up-for-question profoundly in support of a woman's right to full body autonomy.

That was never my issue.

Perhaps I can't hold that opinion whilst at the same time wanting a 'prevention is better than cure opinion'. I thought I could, but in terms of the politically polarising of opinion around abortion, it seems my opinion has a detrimental effect on pro choice rights. Which is rather horrifying tbh.

It's very unusual for me to hold an opinion that I can't fully justify.

So I'm not going to do it for now. I will let what everyone has said percolate and give it some head space.

Datun I can't see anything wrong with your position there (not that I'm the arbiter obviously). You are entirely pro-choice and supportive of abortion rights, believe all women should have the right to choose whilst thinking preventing an unwanted pregnancy in the first place would be preferable. I imagine the vast majority of women who access abortion services would agree. My only issue with that is the word "option" as sometimes it's not a choice between one or the other. Either way abortion rights are so vital to women and girls, which is something I think most are agreed on here.

Actually I shouldn't have said "I imagine the vast majority...would agree" as I can't know that and that may suggest there's something wrong with abortions, there absolutely isn't and I would definitely do so myself were I ever to be in that position. Just meant there's also nothing wrong with feeling you'd rather not have got pregnant without wanting to be in the first place either.