Ben Shapiro

[SheDoneAlreadyDoneHadHerses]

Not sure where this fits in UK statistics but applauds

I'm sorry to hear that Oleanna

I agree that you cannot just deny such people exist- they are not a reason for curtailing abortion for every one else.

So far as Ben Shapiro, on transgender issues nothing he says would be out of place coming from Magdalen Berns.

I agree and I certainly know some who have had several abortions and not appeared to have given it a second thought. I also know a couple of people who still suffer from it.

I also have used contraception correctly and had no accidents and have become pregnant when not using and trying to conceive. I am pro choice, and while I also struggle with the ethics of it in terms of 'viability' (an atrocious term), I firmly believe the decision ultimately has to be the woman's.

I don't have a political viewpoint on abortion. My viewpoint is as woman and a mother. If I politicised my viewpoint, I would come down on the side of pro-choice. Of course.

But if I am agreeing to pro-choice, at the very least I would like to see fewer abortions. If that doesn't sit well with having to come down hard on one side or the other, I can't help that.

I'm not saying that lots of people deliberately use abortion as a means of after-the-fact contraception. Why would you? It is very definitely traumatic.

I'm saying that because you can often have unprotected sex and not conceive, the perceived risk is mentally minimised the next time.

In a nutshell - yes to pro choice, but at the same time push contraception hard. There's no excuse not to use it (in the normal course of events).

If abortions correlated to failed contraception, you wouldn't get the demographics you do.

I honestly thought the morning after pill would revolutionise women's choices. Everyone can make a mistake, get carried away, have a condom break, etc. But why wait until 1, 2, 3 missed periods before you start wondering if you're pregnant? When unprotected sex is what will determine pregnancy.

To me, this seems a very practical issue. Or have I missed something? Is there a stigma attached to the morning after pill or is it something you have to jump through hoops to get hold of?

I had to have an abortion despite using a condom (which broke) and then taking the morning after pill - although due to limited public transport and Sunday opening hours I didn't get hold of it until about 3pm having had the condom break the previous night.

The fact is that the morning after pill is only 89% effective and most contraception is far from 100% effective in real life usage. Condoms not only break but are applied after some sexual contact which drops effectiveness down less than 90%, contraceptive pills aren't taken at the exact same time each day and can be impacted by stomach upsets. Even permanent contraception such as the implant or the copper coil cannot be considered 100% effective because there are still women who get pregnant despite this.

So considering the many flaws of contraception, I'd say that the 16 abortions for every 1,000 women in 2015 does not suggest we've got a cavalier response to abortion.

Oh and I waited about 4 weeks after taking the morning after pill before realising that it hadn't worked when my (very irregular) period failed to show up. I then had to wait another 2 or 3 weeks before actually being able to get a medical abortion.

I imagine many women who get later abortions than that are on a form of contraception that they expect to be working that doesn't give periods and only realise later when they begin to experience pregnancy symptoms.

Thanks oneflew as I said, I'm still learning about circumstances and arguments.

I had assumed none of this is cut and dried. So that is very useful.

Who is jumping into bed with him exactly? Just because someone doesn't agree with him about some things doesn't mean they can't on other issues. You never know, perhaps even you and some of the feminists on this board might agree on some things!

I personally consider my views on a case by case basis, not a tick box of the current 'progressive' ideology.

But then the flip side of that is that unprotected sex feels less risky, because of the availability of abortion. Hence - more abortions

There is absolutely no evidence of that. In fact, quite the opposite: societies with good access to abortion also tend to have low rates of unplanned pregnancies. (There are a few anomalies like Russia but these are due to women there being denied access to contraception, not because women are choosing to use abortion instead of contraception).

I am mystified why anyone - let alone a feminist - would see abortion as anything other than a personal choice. Don't approve of abortion? Fine, don't have one. But support the autonomy of other women to make their own decision about their own body.

Shiny
Noone here is saying that women should ever be denied a choice.

I am mystified why anyone - let alone a feminist - would see abortion as anything other than a personal choice. Don't approve of abortion? Fine, don't have one. But support the autonomy of other women to make their own decision about their own body.

Exactly. I'm still surprised some are using the "some people use abortion in place of contraception so we should acknowledge it happens" line on the subject of abortion rights. I would hope people here would rightly be appalled if someone said that about, for example, false allegations of sexual assault etc (using that example as it's always issues which affect primarily women where this kind of thing is done, use a tiny minority to attack women's rights/campaigners) said "some people do it so we should acknowledge that". It's derailing in both cases in my opinion.

The morning after pill is also not without side effects for some I've been told, though this is a slightly (but not altogether) separate issue.

Sorry, I articulated that appallingly with one of the sentences barely even making sense (rather embarrassing).

Abortion isn't a choice comparable to choosing a Big Mac over a Chicken burger fgs. It is not something 'good'. It is simply sometimes necessary or inevitable.

But support the autonomy of other women to make their own decision about their own body

• NOONE has said anything otherwise. We should not be expected to promote it either; there are significant ethical issues at play.

Noone here is saying that women should ever be denied a choice

If you perpetuate myths like "Easier access to abortion means more abortions", you are fostering a misogynistic culture in which women are denied choice.

If you perpetuate myths like "Easier access to abortion means more abortions", you are fostering a misogynistic culture in which women are denied choice.

Exactly. The main places I've heard that argument before are from anti-abortion protesters, both in person and online. When it's suggested this is at all commonplace or an attitude lots of women have they'd feel all the more justified in perpetuating this myth.

We should not be expected to promote it either

What do you mean by "promote" it? I've never seen anyone do so, unless you mean simply making sure it's a choice which is available and women know this.

If that is directed at me shiny, I didn't actually say that. I have no issue with access whatsoever. I am pro choice as I said upthread. But there are logical and ethical issues re 'viability' such that I understand the pro-life ethical case. Not their tactics, of course.

Again, and I repeat, the final choice MUST be the woman's.

I don't understand the anti-abortion case in the slightest (I refuse to call it "pro-life" as they have no concern about the lives of women whose choices over their own bodies they seek to remove). They simply seek to exert control over women's bodies and dictate what women can do.

RTFT Amy and don't pick up on one word out of context. You know full well what I meant. I am pro choice. Fully. But I am not pro-abortion. There is nothing 'good' about abortion.

That doesn't really follow to me. How can there be nothing "good" about something which gives women choice and potentially helps women's lives so much?

I don't agree with the arguement that logically life begins at conception. Don't follow that at all.

It's a long time since I studied biology at university, but we had many philosophical debates about 'what is life' and how is it defined.

Has this now been resolved and I was unaware?

Once you drill down into it life is such a tricky concept. Is autonomy life? Intelligence? Possessing genes? What about viruses and RNA? Is that life? Is a parasitic organism alive in any meaningful sense of the word?

I don't think you can claim that logically life begins at conception and I don't agree with that viewpoint at all personally. Not just from a practical pro-abortion stance, from a philosophical one too.

Really? You see no ethical issues with abortion?

Really? You see no ethical issues with abortion?

No.

Batteries
So when is it life then?

The only ethical issue I see with abortion is where a woman is forced into one against her will.

As long as there is full, informed, capable consent I see no ethical issues.