Ben Shapiro

[SheDoneAlreadyDoneHadHerses]

Not sure where this fits in UK statistics but applauds

I agree, Batteriesallgone.

Ok great then Amy. The conversation above was about the ethical issues. If you don't believe thare are any, then fine, it doesn't affect you

It does affect me as the kind of argument being put forward feeds into anti-abortion rhetoric.

Speaking for myself, I doubt I'll ever wish to have children (though I know that could well change in future, who knows how I'll feel in 15, 20 etc years' time). I'll take precautions to try to ensure I don't fall pregnant in future but should they fail, it's vital I have the right and ability to access abortion services.

OK, so are you saying that noone should be allowed to think there are ethical issues, given that they also ultimately support the right of the women to make her decision and have full access and support to abortion?

I am struggling with being told I cannot want to reduce the number of abortions whilst at the same time being pro-choice.

If some of my concerns are also mentioned by people who are not pro choice, I can't help that. I'm not one of those people.

I fully, 100% support a woman's right to autonomy over her own body.

Wanting to reduce abortions, is not the opposite of that.

I'm just surprised to find feminists who have issues with abortion. As I said, it's one issue where even non-feminists I know agree. It's a woman's body and therefore should only be her choice what to do with it. I can't see how other people pontificating about ethical issues when it's her who has to carry the pregnancy inside her with her life being affected is relevant.

Totally agree IAmAmy. For the individual woman, abortion is usually distressing - after 20 years as a doctor, I am still waiting to meet a woman who does not take abortion seriously.

But, for women as a whole, abortion is incredibly important. Our right to bodily autonomy should be celebrated. It is really dangerous for those who support that right to indulge in squeamish hand-wringing about how terrible it is that we need abortion: that plays right into the hands of the Anti-Choice ("Pro-Life") lobby.

Abortion is not a necessary evil: it is a necessary (though difficult) good. Not only does it protect women, it protects children: all societies without access to legal abortion have much higher rates of infanticide and of late illegal abortion. Everyone hand-wringing about aborting a foetus the size of a kidney bean (the human embryo at 8 weeks) should remember that the alternative is a lot of dead term or near-term babies and a lot of dead women.

If you are pro-Choice, have the guts to be fully pro-Choice.

Datun how would you reduce the number of abortions if you are pro-choice and your issues are with abortion itself?

Mercy ah, I dunno really. I would say at birth, generally, although I know that is open to challenge. But I think it's clearer that there is independent life at birth than at any earlier stage.

I think I remember parasites being discussed at uni and one of the arguments put forward was that a parasitic organism can survive in any individual of a host species, so has a degree of independence, thus alive. A foetus can only live in its specific host, so is more comparable to a cluster of cells, like an organ, thus not alive. But it was quite a long time ago now. I was just trying to make the point that I'm aware of the different arguments - I wasn't placing myself as grand arbiter of the potentially endless debate!

I am struggling with being told I cannot want to reduce the number of abortions whilst at the same time being pro-choice

No one has said that, Datun. What I am disputing is your point upthread that easier access to abortion = more abortion. That is just plain wrong and straight from the Pro-Life, anti-woman playbook.

No it doesn't feed into anti abortion rhetoric. Noone should be allowed to determine someone else's ethical position just as the same as a woman should not be forced to have a baby she does not want. Ultimately, IMO, the woman's rights beat the ethics in this situation as anything else is barbaric.

I concur fully, shiny. As I said a couple of times earlier in the thread, some of these supposed arguments against echo exactly what I've heard from anti-abortion people. It really does play into their hands when they hear people aside from themselves say "but it is terrible" etc, especially at a time when the Health Secretary himself is in favour of lowering the time limit for abortion and "pro-life" as they call themselves groups are having their "counselling services" promoted by the government as I understand it.

Shiny
"If you are pro-Choice, have the guts to be fully pro-Choice"

How fucking dare you? You have NO right to determine my ethical stance. Is this supposed to be liberal thinking?

I wasn't saying no one else was allowed to see ethical issues btw. I'm not thought police!

I just stated that I do not see any beyond the woman's consent. This idea that pro-choice means having to live with an element of unease / ethical dilemma just isn't true in my case.

I don't think we should be worrying about reducing the number of abortions tbh. The number (16 per 1000 "fertile" women) is so low as to be below the failure rate of condoms with perfect use.

Clearly women are taking contraception seriously to achieve this and those who require an abortion are probably, like me, those who have had a form of contraceptive failure and of course the truly awful scenarios of women who have to end a wanted pregnancy because of health issues.

To say that we ought to reduce below this point is implying that we, as women, are not already doing our best collectively to be responsible for our contraception. It is treating us as children who cannot be trusted to make serious and sensible decisions about our own bodies.

Also the idea there are "ethical arguments" against abortion could potentially shame women who access the services and make them feel they've done something wrong (which the protesters already do). It's difficult enough without people telling them what they're doing is not "good" or has "ethical issues".

I am now in a very good place after battling with a lot of bad thoughts and am happy to talk about it in a positive light, it is not something to be ashamed of and should most definitely have more awareness.

From an abortion rights website.

How fucking dare you? You have NO right to determine my ethical stance. Is this supposed to be liberal thinking?

I was making a rhetorical admonition, not "determining your ethical stance" (how would that even work?). If you can't tell the difference between the two, this is not going to be a productive discussion. Enjoy the warm glow of your outrage though.

Ok it isn't an issue for you and you are entitled to believe what you believe. But you are not entitled to impose that on me anymore than I am entitled to do so to you.

I FULLY support a woman's right to access abortion and support. But I DO believe there are ethical issues. You don't. There it is. I think that's the best we can do with such a difficult issue unless we want to hammer everyone with a different ethical position into submission

No one has said that, Datun. What I am disputing is your point upthread that easier access to abortion = more abortion. That is just plain wrong and straight from the Pro-Life, anti-woman playbook.

Ok. Why does ease of access not make the risk of pregnancy less pressing? I'm fully prepared to hear the reasons, by the way.

I do feel very strongly that a woman should have rights over her own body. Very strongly.

But if getting into a situation where you have to consider an abortion can be reduced, I don't see the problem with that.

I do appreciate that almost any argument is going to be jumped on as being 'on the other side'. That's not where I am and I'm happy to hear further reasons.

Rhetorical admonition -is that a euphemism for goady fuckery?

I would rather not be pregnant at all than ever have to go through the process of having an abortion and I have no doubt I'm the same as the vast majority (when they don't want to be pregnant). Supposed "ease of access" doesn't change that.

Datun, I totally agree with you that we should try to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, whether they result in abortion or birth, because they often lead to bad outcomes for the woman.

But the facts do not support the idea that easier access to abortion increases the abortion rate - except in countries where there is little access to contraception, e.g. Russia. Countries with liberal abortion laws and good access to contraception have the lowest abortion rates. The myth that easy access to abortion = lots of abortion is a really dangerous one that has been used extensively by the Anti-Choice lobby.

but anyone who says 'yes I'm pro choice but I don't like it'. I'll take that.

But why is it even relevant? If you're vehemently pro-choice and believe in a woman's right to choose, why even say you don't like it and feed into the anti-abortion lobby's rhetoric which is pernicious enough anyway and thus undermine abortion rights?