Any advice please?

[Ohthegrandolddukeofyorkjellies]

Hi.

Without wishing to out myself - goodness knows that I'm actually feeling scared for the first time in my career as it is - I'm a health education teacher and responsible for sex and relationship education which I'm happy to do. I think there's v
alue in what I do, supporting learners to navigate this stuff during lessons and on an individual or small group basis as and when. I've been teaching nearly 20 years so have pretty much heard it all...

This year I am facing, for the first time, horrendous hostility from our boys in relation to any discussion about equality, rape or sexual assault. I've carried out quite a bit of research, pupil voice etc and, having followed the dots, I've ended up finding some of the YouTubers and sites that they seem to watching. I feel so depressed - there's no way that I can compete with the onslaught of misinformation. In fact, the more I try to address it, the greater the backlash. These are boys that I have known since the age of 11 and of whom I am so fond.

Can anyone give me any advice or suggestions - or even just encouragement to carry on with my work as it's starting to feel quite futile.

Thank you.

Hi, the only way you're going to win these boys over is with plain old logic - you're going to have to show them that you make more sense than one of these anti feminist YouTubers - it's that simple.

The thing is it's not that simple. It's hard to argue logically against ideas that are so endemic.

Like blaming victims for what they wear. To say "if you don't want to attract male attention then don't wear revealing clothing" sounds logical and simple but it ignores the complex reality of girls' lives: the pressure of fashion and conformity, the conflict of wanting to look attractive to the opposite sex (entirely natural) whilst only wanting that attention from boys you like. The ideas we are taught about the male ego and its fragility etc etc.

And what seems "logical" and objective is often just the subjective opinion of the mainstream.

I've sent you a pm, bearing bear.

Men often present their arguments as 'logical' as opposed to the 'over emotional' stance of feminists.

As pp have suggested. A fact based lesson. They have to match percentages to facts - women killed by DV - women who have suffered FGM.

Or to support their arguments they have to research and prove their points with well substantiated facts. Not the wild opinions of a YouTube blogger. Link it science and history where you need to evidence your opinions.

Use cold, hard logic. Point out their over emotional investment in their 'feelinz' - obviously don't humiliate, but you can make them uncomfortable.

Oh and when you have planned and resourced these lessons could you make them available to the rest of us

jellies c4 did a program a few years back called "sex in class" and it was really good. Don't know if you have already watched it but if not it might interest you. She was very clever at getting boys and girls to be open about their expectations of sex and relationships. And identifying where these were unrealistic (for the boys who'd been learning from porn (
www.channel4.com/programmes/sex-in-class

I think you need to try to avoid teaching equality in the manner that a vicar would teach RE. Everyone needs to challenge their prejudices. That very much applies to your pupils, but to you as well i.e. trying to understand their views will help the discussion and learning.

The other thing is that everyone finds it hard to worry about things they have little experience of e.g. poverty in Africa. Therefore, it may be harder for kids to appreciate things like different salaries.

You could talk about things like why do boys do worse than girls at school? Is it sexism that means women live longer than men? Anything to get them thinking!

Yeah great spicey. Talking to a bunch of boys who are already anti woman about why "boys do worse than girls at school" will definitely be useful

Quentin it depends how the lesson is done. If presented in a 'we are worried about boys' way they may well engage. Asking why boys do worse than girls and making them think might work. Pull out the specific behaviours that reduce the achievement of boys and analyse them. See if they can relate these behaviours to themselves.

Yeah I know mousse
Just lecturing the OP who's clearly an amazing teacher on how their own prejudices aren't helping momentarily got my back up.

I don't know if this is suitable for the age you're teaching (just being cautious) but it's a domestic violence advert addressing respect for women from Australia that has had some excellent press recently.

I think it's quite powerful and shows the link between seemingly innocuous statements we hear a lot and damaging attitudes towards women.

Could be a debate topic?

I know what I'm about to say isn't very feminist (and goes against what I believe) but would they take the message on board if it was a male teacher?

Unfortunately I completely see your point in this. I've encountered a fair few "anti-feminist" boys (who attended an all boys school) with whom I eventually realised it was pointless engaging. Then, a boy perceived as being incredibly "cool" at this school (rugby team captain etc) started going out with a friend of mine, engaged with feminism and decided he was a feminist (and seems to genuinely care). Suddenly, a couple of those boys with whom I've since engaged have declared they "see where feminism is coming from" and that school even has a joint feminist society with their sister girls' school now. So, much as it's frustrating and shows the need for feminism in itself that sometimes boys/men will only think about things when they hear about it from other boys/men, it can have positive results.

Also, OP, I very much feel for you. I see you've already discussed ways in which outdated views harm men, such as terms like "man up" and boys/men being discouraged from expressing feelings and showing sensitivity etc. Although it may not be top of their list of considerations at the moment, there are also issues such as how fathers are discouraged from being primary caregivers for their children, mothers assumed to take on that role, lack of equal parental leave meaning fathers find it difficult to stay at home/take on most of the parental responsibility if they want to, pressured into feeling they have to be the "breadwinner" when they want to be bonding with their child etc which still happens. Though of course I'm no expert! Also perhaps how girls and boys are pushed towards thinking certain subjects aren't for them which inhibits all children.

This article isn't all relevant, but draws an interesting parallel between claims of voter fraud and claims that false accusations are rife.

harpers.org/archive/2014/10/cassandra-among-the-creeps/1/

I was once in a seminar, led by Dale Spender, an Australian feminist academic. She started the session by introducing the statistics about how teachers interact with students in classrooms She then announced that she would reverse the normal attention ratio i.e. give the men the same proportion of attention as the women usually get (roughly 17%)

It started off fine then descended fairly quickly. The men go massively annoyed as they were routinely passed over in favour of women's voices. She would answer men's questions if they were asked by a woman. The men got more and more frustrated and started shouting to be heard.

It was a short sharp shock lesson in the reality of life fore women, made even more stark by the fact that, despite it being clearly stated at the start that this is how it would be, some men simply didn't take any notice and assumed their privileged position was inviolate.

You could try a cut down version of this i.e. spending a few sessions ostentatiously taking speaking statistics (build in a maths lesson here about averages and ratios here) then randomly do the swap one day and discuss their reaction.

It was a short sharp lesson in how life is for women in mixed groups.

Actually, I thoroughly recommend "Invisible Women: The Schooling Scandal" by Dale Spender as a useful resource for teachers

Made Language is also a very good feminist investigation into how language is used to silence women.

My dcs school run something called the MVP programme (mentors in violence prevention). It's aimed at tackling violence against women by focusing on the behaviour of the bystander, not the perpetrator. That might make the boys you talk to feel they weren't being "told off" so much as challenged to take a stand for good. Began originally with Jackson Katz in the US, he has a good ted talk about men taking responsibility for violence against women and not making it a woman's issue.

I'm following up on every recommendation. Thanks so much.

This is really interesting and depressing. My dd (13) seems to regularly have 'discussions' about feminism with the boys in her form. She gets so frustrated that they appear to think the world is biased towards women and the boys are the ones struggling to be heard! This thread suggests that it's more mainstream than I thought... we're going backwards in so many ways

Have you seen the lanc police anti rape adds that came out a few yrs ago? Big burly men saying I listen when a woman says no, that kind of thing. Maybe something along those lines would help. So not focusing on girls & letting way for victim blaming but forcing them to live up to a better idea of 'men'

Quentin is that the one where she makes the boys shave they're pubes daily- if so v good! Also re logic & stats- point out this cd be their mother, grandmother, sister, future daughter

Anything helpful on this site, which you may already know?

www.bishuk.com/sex/is-it-consensual-if-we-were-both-drunk/

As I said upthread, I've been going through every recommendation, for which I am so grateful. Also, for some kind, encouraging words and empathy. I do love my job very very much but is very draining. I also would rather not do it all if I can't get it right.

In trying to find the Lanc Police resource, I stumbled across this (sorry it's from the Mail) which I fond absolutely chilling so thought I'd share:

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2930554/NFL-tackles-domestic-violence-head-chilling-Super-Bowl-ad-based-victim-s-real-911-call.html

Thanks again.

That last message was riddled with typos, sorry... it's been a long week.

Yes wobbly! And write a romantic story in mixed groups then discuss it. I thought she was brilliant
Tonight I have discovered my 10yo and 12 yo have both watched porn on YouTube so I'm a bit . Not sure WTF to do.....

Are you alright, Quentin? From your fantastic for me on this thread you seem very clued up but please do send me a message if there's anything I can do.

Gosh I really don't like that Australian government video. I can see how it would put boys' backs up to see that.

I think a lot more is to be gained by looking at the bystander and appealing to them to stand up against violence.