Finsbury Park murder (warning: distressing child death). THIS IS MALE VIOLENCE. Why is it not being named?

[BertieBotts]

I'm so upset after reading the reports about this tonight. I won't link because it really is that awful, (they were just little babies :() but suffice to say, yet another attack on women and children, named as "domestic". Oh don't worry everyone, he wasn't a psycho or anything, it's just domestic! It's just fucking endemic, you mean. Because it's not like domestic magically means that each incident is isolated, except wait, no, that's literally how it is treated. ALL THE TIME.

Why is it only ever women's organisations who seem to care about these patterns? Why do we continue to glamourise control and emotional abuse in our media depictions of relationships when it's just the thin end of the wedge which ends in men killing women or men killing women's children in order to punish the woman? (Arguably worse). Why do we promote ultra-violent, misogynistic porn as something normal? Why do we laugh off male aggression?

Do we not get it? Do we not see the patterns? Because I see them ALL THE TIME and I don't know what to do about it, it really makes me despair.

My half Asian children are exceedingly white looking, so I don't think anyone need jump to conclusions about these babies' parentage.

Male violence is so pervasive that it becomes the water in which we swim. We accept it as normal.

I have literally just read a comment on another thread where the op says "He isn't a misogynist pig. I'm not an idiot. I wouldn't be married to a man like that"

Well, good for you. Stupid woman.

The thing is with this case...the reaction seems muted. We are used to male violence.

This is a dreadful case too. Poor girl went to police about her ex stalking her and she was fined for wasting police time!

And then he cut her throat...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/shana-grice-murdered-stalking-fined-for-wasting-police-time-michael-lane-trial-lewes-crown-court-a7637196.html

Just this second had a look on the BBC News site and saw this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-39352571

At least the police correctly state he murdered her but the BBC don't. Also something about how these cases get reported (if they even do) gets to me, as has been alluded to its almost understated how intrinsic misogyny is in these cases, men feeling they have ownership over women.

I also recall this horrific case: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37787949 and came across this one whilst reading about that one: www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/8

Apologies for diverting the topic of this thread away from the Finsbury Park case.

Given that 2 women a week are murdered by current or ex partners, we could keep this thread going forever.

Sorry but I think some of these comments are a bit out of order.
A child has been murdered, and one is in intensive care.
Women also murder their children, do any of you start a thread talking about 'female violence' when that happens?
Decent human beings do not commit murder, especially young children, and that goes for both men and women.
I honestly am a bit sickened by this thread. It seems that some of you just want to make a point. Flame me all you like, I don't care.

Wow, we got all the way to page 2 before getting "Shut up!!! Women do it too!!11!1!!!".

How many noeffing how many women kill their children?

Some of the stories about how men go about it with the only intention of denying those children to their mother or killing the mother as well are horrific.

No one has said women don't do violence, the numbers are phenomenally different though. And no one cares.

I think nobody wants to talk about it precisely because it is so common.

People don't want to admit that it could happen to them. People don't want to admit that it could be their son, husband, partner who does it.
People like crime to be kept in nice little boxes labelled "this could never happen to me".

Oh and also, because it's so common and ingrained, it would take a huge amount of resources to begin tackling it properly. We don't have those resources (not without taking them away from other services, or raising tax, neither of which is popular). So it's easier to brush it under the carpet rather than admitting we have a huge problem that we aren't in a position to tackle.

AnneSmythe: I've been told, here on mumsnet, that the violence meted out to me was because I didn't pick well. It was said that you don't get raped if you pick a decent man. It's an all pervasive attitude.

I remember that comment. It was phrased as 'I have good taste in men so I haven't been a victim' which would have been laughable if it wasn't so horrible.

I don't know if people believe me but until I went to University I thought that male violence against female partners and children was normal.
I grew up with a father who had a vile temper and was physically abusive. My mother had also been a victim of emotional neglect as a child and thought smacking children was normal.
It still staggers me that there are so many people who have never been hit. It was such an 'ordinary' part of our lives growing up.
I wonder if these experiences skew our view of male violence and leads to accepting what should be unacceptable.
I reached the point 26 years ago when I vowed never to think that it was ever acceptable or understandable and to challenge abuse when I saw it.

Bertie, I agree with every single word of your opening post and share your anger 100%. I don't know what else to say. I am sick and tired of the same thing happening over and over and over again and all the hand wringing and the shrugging and the 'what can you do' attitude. Society is in such a fucking mess

Just appalling.

How can we screen these men out, to protect women and children from them?

How can we get more people to recognise red flags?

What do we need to do? And yes, the 'romantic' portrayal of harrassment, jealousy, stalking, control... Desperate.

The long term trend is that fewer children are being killed. Yes of course any violence should be abhorred but it isn't right to say that it's getting worse either.

"Women do it too"

Well, fuck off and start your own thread about female centric violence then.

whatsthat are there fewer family annihilators? Do you mean there are fewer children being killed altogether or fewer being killed by a parent or by their father?

Well said AF. There's always one (at least)

Wow, we got all the way to page 2 before getting "Shut up!!! Women do it too!!11!1!!!"

Quite right too. Honestly, is it proper these days for people to be so intolerant of other people's entrenched prejudices.

I don't know exactly AB, but given that in the vast majoirity of cases it is by a parent I would assume that they are reducing yes. There's an NSPCC report that has statistics etc in it - (fairly big file). I'm not sure about family annihilation, but this seems to say that the long term trend is that it has got worse.

Once I said that it seems it's mainly me. Who kill their own children for revenge on the ex. Boy was I shit down! Didn't I think women do bad things too? 🤔

It's mainly MEN who...

Ah, yes, the old "women do it too".

To anyone that says that, I say "you are part of the problem". When we deny that male violence is even a thing, we let it fester away unchecked. How could we ever begin to address or solve something unless we acknowledge what's actually happening? You could read this, if you were bothered about learning something, but I doubt you will: link

What an awful case. OP, I know it can seem hopeless sometimes, but try not to despair too much

You're very tiresome, cadno. Do you think a thread about domestic violence is a good place for your rapier wit? Because from here, it just makes you look like a heartless dick. If the cap fits, though, I guess?