Man walks free from court after statutory rape

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Saw this news case today, and am not sure what I think:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

I feel that it gives the message that it's ok for men not to worry about the age of girls/women they have sex with if they have reasonable grounds to believe they're 16+.

As such getting off with no punishment whatsoever is utterly bizarre.

You want to get a job as a Judge, mate. You'd be good. You got the Latin for it ?

Is there any evidence that the child had been drinking in bars and clubs ?

The only men attesting to her looking "old enough" are a rapist, the police and a taxi driver as far as I can see

I think it far more likely she had been drinking cheap cider/vodka on the street

MrsKCastle I never said there were no differences between the situations but the central decision is the same: the decision to engage in sexual activity with a stranger without being completely sure this person is over the legal age. In both cases it was reasonable to believe the young people were over 16 but the argument being put forward by some is that reasonable belief isn't sufficient.

Of course having sex is more serious than kissing but both would be crimes if it turned out the younger person was under 16. So either both situations involve "negligence" about ascertaining age or neither does.

No doubt the man in this case would also have stopped instantly if he had found out how young the girl really was but he didn't find out. Arguably he took more care to ascertain her age than in the "kissing" example. He thought he was a 19 year old having consenting sex with a 16 year old. As far as he knew, or could reasonably be expected to know, he was doing nothing remotely wrong, let alone illegal.

You might think people should be required to ID anyone they date but as it stands they're NOT required to do so and it's completely unfair to say that this one man, uniquely, should have done something no one else is expected to do. Casual sex is not a crime, nor even morally wrong to many people (probably most people by now?) You might disapprove of a small age gap of 16/19 but, again, there's nothing legally wrong with that, nor morally wrong to many (most?) people.

Seriously, the message we should be taking from this case is 'Don't have sex with someone without being sure that they're old enough to consent'.

Yes, but HOW would you go about being sure? Even if you made ID a legal requirement it's easy enough to obtain fakes. So many under 18s already have them in order to buy alcohol and get into venues. If they needed it for sex too they'd all have a fake ID before you could say boo.

Why aren't the parents being accused of neglect?
Maybe they are (if she's not in 'care').

If I met a pissed girl outside a nightclub waiting for a taxi at 4am in the morning and she looked 20, it wouldn't occur to me for a second she was 12

Even after reading this sorry tale?

None anyfucker

But i have heard on these threads that

She looked 16/18/20

That she had bought alcohol (and had therefore been age checked)

She had been in a nightclub/bar (and had therefore been age checked)

She had fake ID

The sentencing report makes no mention of her having fake ID or being in bars and clubs. It says her and her friends met older teenagers and the group bought and drunk vodka.

I can't actually see it stating anywhere that the girl herself even told him she was 16 - just that he was told.

Because he pled guilty I think a lot of the evidence that would have been used in a trial isn't made public? Am I right?

orchids, if you really can't see the difference between kissing a 16 year old in an over 18s club, a public place where it's a reasonable asssumption that everyone there is over 18, asking them their age, then stopping immediately because even though they say they are 16, it's still wrong whether that's the truth or not, where all the evidence suggesting that they are in fact the age they say they are; and meeting a 12 year old in the street, with her 13 year old friend, not bothering to verify her age beyond "yeah she seems like she's old enough", taking her to a flat, getting her and yourself undressed, and then having sex with her- then there's really nothing else I can say to you, because that is a very weird line of reasoning.

Pooch I agree it's probably pointless to continue discussing this because I too find your justifications increasingly bizarre. You kissed (not on the cheek, presumably) someone whose age you hadn't made even the slightest effort to ascertain beyond the assumption that he must be over 18 because he was in a club (yeah because no under 18s EVER go into clubs ). You hadn't even taken a proper look at his face before sticking your tongue in his mouth - you realised he was younger than you thought as soon as a bit of light passed over him. No, you didn't have sex with him. Congratulations. That's about the only difference. So it's ok to snog potentially underage people just as long as you don't get naked? Riiight. The law doesn't exactly agree on that point but whatever.

I agree rj

But its amazing how people are extrapolating

Quite vivid imaginations some people...thankfully not many on these threads

Over
"At 19, there's no way I'd want sex with a 16 year old anyway, if I was waiting for a taxi at 4am and a girl or boy told me they were only 16 and had been out drinking, id ask if their parents knew they were out, I'd ask if they were OK to get home, offer taxi money if they didn't have enough, offer my phone if they wanted to phone an adult to collect them etc If the police who we rounding up underage drinkers were about id have a word with them. What I absolutely wouldn't do is invite them back to a party and have sex with them."

I agree so completely.

indeed- whatever. Let's leave it at mutual incomprehension.

It says her and her friends met older teenagers and the group bought and drunk vodka.
So it's possible that the adult knowingly bought spirits to drink with a 16 year old girl. If he'd shown he didn't care about her not being old to drink, is it unreasonable to think he'd not be bothered if she was underage either? I don't think he thought she was 12, but from the responses on the other thread, it seems it's common that 14/15 year olds are out in pubs drinking so maybe he should have stopped to consider its likely she's 14/15?

I was talking to my 18 year old nephew about this today, he'd already heard about and had said he absolutely would not consider having with sex a 16 yr old girl full stop, never mind one he'd just met at a taxi rank at 4am. He said he'd assume she'd been drinking in the park after getting an adult to buy drink for them rather than her being in pubs etc, and he wouldn't assume she actually was 16 as there's always girls and boys from his old school out drinking who he knows are 14/15, not in pubs, but in the street or park and their parents don't usually know as they'll tell their parents they are at each other's house and/or sneak out, he could easily see a situation where girls would pretend she's older to go to a party,esp if they were already drunk from drinking in a park or whatever and that only an idiot would risk it.

He said he's not really into ONS but some of his friends who are 18/19 are but not with drunk 16 year olds. If they hadn't paired up with someone the same age as themselves by 4am, they'd choose no sex rather than having sex with a known or unknown 16 year old who'd been drinking all night as it's unlikely she'd know their own limits re alcohol and wouldn't want to take the risk that even if she was actually 16 she could be too drunk to consent as she won't have had the experience of drinking and its effects that a 19 year old may have.

Is that a unique attitude for eighteen year olds?

Orchids I posted pretty much the same as Pooch but was perhaps more thrown by your comments. I've tried to examine my conscience but as a parent, if a 19 year old shared a snog my younger son/daughter (i actually have sons) then clicked they were younger and immediately backed off I think I would feel relieved that they had been careful enough to note my child might be younger than them and cared enough to respect that and not allow things to go further. I really can't relate to the disgust you convey.

So it's possible that the adult knowingly bought spirits to drink with a 16 year old girl. If he'd shown he didn't care about her not being old to drink, is it unreasonable to think he'd not be bothered if she was underage either?
I think you're getting confused. She met up with a group of friends and they bought the vodka hours before meeting the defendant.

@nowin
I misread you're right, I took the older teenager to be the man. My mistake,

No I think from the comments it was an older group of friends they met up with and spent the night drinking with. No mention I can see of being in pubs or clubs or of bouncers.

Then the two girls went to get a taxi home and this guy picked them up at that point.

That she had bought alcohol (and had therefore been age checked)

There is nothing to say she bought it.

So far as fake ID , a few years ago I did not want my son taking his passport with him in case he lost it. He didn't , for some reason which now escapes me, have a provisional driving licence. I bought an alternative ID card which was promoted by the Scottish government and almost no venue would accept it. That was a real ID but the door people weren't convinced.

Yoshimihere - I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I understand that you and Pooch both started snogging boys without knowing their age. Pooch's snoggee later claimed to be 16 (but who knows if he was even really that old) and you have assumed that your snoggee was 16 because he looked a bit young and it was GCSE results day, but you don't know for sure.

Obviously it's good that neither of you went any further, but engaging in any sexual activity with someone who could well be a minor, without having even queried their age, probably isn't ideal...

And who knows what would have happened if the boys had claimed to be older, and were able to 'pass' as being a bit older?

To me both of your stories further support the message that parents need to really impress on their teens the dangers of 'hooking up' with a stranger.

I know lass

I was using it as an example of all the senarios some people seem to be making up

Ive said a number of times along with others that some children get alcohol bought for them

lass

Friend of ds1 had one of those check age type cards ....didnt work in the nightclub unfortunately

Ive said a number of times along with others that some children get alcohol bought for them

Exactly. My experience of teenagers in Edinburgh that with the exception of one historic pub I won't name and shame most places were pretty strict.


Off topic but when I worked in a corner store two lads came in to buy a scratchcard

We said no as they werent 16, few more customers came in and about an hour later the two lads, very cocky by now, came in with a winning scratchcard

They had persuaded someone to buy it for them

We didnt let them have their winnings and we confiscated their card...as they werent 16

I found it very funny....not to their face as that would have been mean

Where were they until 4am then? I assumed that the only place you could be till that time was a nightclub, and that that was where they had been seen by police and been served alcohol.