Man walks free from court after statutory rape

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Saw this news case today, and am not sure what I think:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

I feel that it gives the message that it's ok for men not to worry about the age of girls/women they have sex with if they have reasonable grounds to believe they're 16+.

Having had a brief conversation on this with a boy I know well he is also horrified and says there's no way he could have a conversation with a 12 year old and not find it pretty obvious they're much younger than himself. Having had conversations with 12 year olds, including very mature and intelligent ones (more so than myself probably), I entirely agree.

I'm sure most boys and men are of the same mindset as him in finding this kind of case abhorrent.

How about this then: if it means we successfully punish men who rape 12 year old children, then I'd be happy to live in this hypothetical world where I was also censured for what I did?

No, Pooch, I don't think either you or the man in this case are child rapists, since you both engaged in sexual activity with people you reasonably believed to be overage. He was unlucky in that his reasonable belief was incorrect. You don't know whether your reasonable belief was incorrect or not. Maybe you were lucky. Or maybe you snogged a child, which would make you guilty of a sexual offence unless you think "reasonable belief" is a legitimate defence. How was your decision different from the decision this man made?

"More so than myself probably" was supposed to mean more mature than me, which isn't too difficult, not suggest I think I'm particularly intelligent by the way (just saw how that could read)!

...posted too soon- if it turned out that he was under 16 (which as he'd told me he was out celebrating the end of his exams, was unlikely)

But even the man in question is not arguing the point that he is a child rapist!

i'm off to watch the rugby now anyway, and will use the time to contemplate my apparent history of sex offending

I'm finding it far too upsetting and infuriating. I'm gonna take a break for now.

I'm genuinely shocked at the sheer number of mners (most of whom are probably parents) who think this is ok. It's not.

I too am off to watch the rugby. But consider this:

A man takes himself and his 11 year old son to a sex worker. He say's I'm having sex with you and then so is my son. Here's the money.

TBH I find the idea that he was happy to jump into bed with a random 16 year old pretty abhorrent. When I was 19 I wouldn't have kissed let along slept with a 16 year old. The difference between being 19 and 16 is pretty big.

I wonder how many of you that say he should have made SURE she was not lying about her age, have asked to see identification of every guy you've slept with.

I can only speak for myself, but no, if I were him, as an adult 19 year old year old woman I would not ask to see ID of a male I'd met at 4am at a taxi rank to double check they were old enough to fuck because if I had any doubt, I'd abstain.

At 19, there's no way I'd want sex with a 16 year old anyway, if I was waiting for a taxi at 4am and a girl or boy told me they were only 16 and had been out drinking, id ask if their parents knew they were out, I'd ask if they were OK to get home, offer taxi money if they didn't have enough, offer my phone if they wanted to phone an adult to collect them etc If the police who we rounding up underage drinkers were about id have a word with them. What I absolutely wouldn't do is invite them back to a party and have sex with them.

I can see from reading these threads though that I'm in a minority.

When I was sixteen I found most nineteen year old boys pretty lame. I remember a nineteen yr old boyfriend who was lovely, and two in their mid twenties when I was seventeen and eighteen....
Mind people didn't expect sex early in a relationship then.

@IAmAmy I think you are amazing. I often mention your posts to my own dd, she speaks a lot like you but now she's in secondary I can see that confidence in voicing herself dip a little. I truly hope she keeps the confidence to speak about girls and women's issues, like you have. Hope you have a great birthday

Thank you so much OverthinkingSpartacus that's such a lovely thing to say! Feel free to PM me any time if you want to ask anything about your daughter, not that you'd need to of course but with regards to feminism etc. I'm lucky that I go to a girls' school which instills confidence, I was quite shy when I started and don't know how I'd have found a mixed school (though of course there are many girls who thrive in them and make their voices heard as your daughter will, she sounds fantastic and with your guidance will thrive). Thank you very much again for your lovely post and wishes!

just came back after calming a little.

Just had a thought - was the defendant there when the police were asking about underage girls? I can't find an answer in the reports, but if he WAS then surely the fact the police believed there to be and found very underage girls in that location should have indicated to him to be far more cautious than he was?

Really interested to hear from any other posters (who aren't just making a point) about the comparison with snogging on the dance floor before realising that the boy was a 16yo. Is it exactly comparable in principle? I fear it might be.

He thought she was 16 so had sex with her. The poster upthread thought this boy was older but once he said he was 16 she immediately stopped as she was aware 16 was too young and he could have been younger. The man involved in this rape case used a similar scenario to rape a 12 year old girl rather than make sure she got into her taxi and home safely.

graphista no the police spoke to her "in the early hours" and she met him in the taxi queue at 4am.

OrchidsandLace: No, Pooch, I don't think either you or the man in this case are child rapists, since you both engaged in sexual activity with people you reasonably believed to be overage.

I can't believe you don't see the difference between these two situations. One involved a kiss in a public place, which should only be open to over 18s, with the adult immediately stopping when they realised how young the child was. The other involved full sex after a meeting at a taxi rank. Rather more time must have passed, giving the man in question the opportunity to learn more about the person he was shagging.

Seriously, the message we should be taking from this case is 'Don't have sex with someone without being sure that they're old enough to consent'.

And, no, I have never asked for ID, but I have always been certain that my partners are of age. And yes, if the man had asked for and been shown convincing fake ID, then I would expect that to be taken into account.

Hmm given that the accused met the victim whilst the victim was accompanied by a friend who was 13. If you can buy one girl looking old enough fine, two is a bit of a stretch.

In addition surely if you spend time out on the town it's not exactly unheard of for underage kids to be out and about. I agree 12 and 4am is particularly shocking, but I think anyone with a modicum of common sense would be aware of the potential for children out and about playing grown up.

I can buy certain children acting very grown up, but I really struggle with a 12 year old and a 13 year old maintaining that under the influence of booze.

We men know trust me we do. I suspect the accused in this case WAS shocked to find out she was 12, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he thought he was sleeping with someone in the 14-15 range. As such getting off with no punishment whatsoever is utterly bizarre.

can buy certain children acting very grown up, but I really struggle with a 12 year old and a 13 year old maintaining that under the influence of booze.

For which the girl would already have had to have convinced someone else that she was 18. Which this chap knew, because she was already drunk. So he already knew she had lied once about how old she was.

Either that or someone who didn't care what age she is supplied the alcohol. I have known parents do it.

DSD is 11 and could easily pass for 18 when she is dressed up. She is actually taller than I am to (her dad is over 6ft, she seems to have his height). She also can pass for an adult 'conversation-wise' sometimes, though she has a very childish side too obviously.

I do not believe this man suspected this girl was as young as she was, especially given noone else who saw her that night did, infact some placed her at 20. The right decision was made in this case.

The girl has been let down indeed. But not by this man who I expect feels absolutely awful about this whole thing. I doubt he will be having any one night stands in the future...maybe thats a slight plus?

How the fuck did the parents not know where she was at 4am. Even if the kids lied and said they were staying at each others houses, surely the parents would confirm with each other? I certainly would. But then again..I give a shit...

Dont most kids know that some adults can be persuaded to buy alcohol for them ?

Why aren't the parents being accused of neglect? What about the people, bars or nightclubs where she was buying the booze from?

Given the girl was out on the town drinking there is a chance she had a fake ID. Was the taxi stand perhaps just outside a venue than you have to be 18 to enter? What if the boy had asked to see her ID to prove she was old enough and she showed him the fake, would it make any difference?

Should people not only have to prove their age before sex but also have to do an authenticity check on each others ID? Maybe provide 2 different utilities bills and a photo signed by someone who has known them for 2 years? Given supermarkets ask for ID to buy alcohol up to the age of 25, should that be the age test for sex as well.

If I met a pissed girl outside a nightclub waiting for a taxi at 4am in the morning and she looked 20, it wouldn't occur to me for a second she was 12. He hasn't done anything wrong.