Man walks free from court after statutory rape

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Saw this news case today, and am not sure what I think:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

I feel that it gives the message that it's ok for men not to worry about the age of girls/women they have sex with if they have reasonable grounds to believe they're 16+.

Blue

even if they blatantly look old enough.

Which suggests that there are degrees of looking old enough (old enough for what?)

Care to tell us what not looking blatantly old enough looks like?

Absolutely Amy you are a credit to your generation.

Ffs! Just read the judges statement, not much better than the other thread.

Apparently the poor wee soul may need help to recover from the ordeal

That's the rapist may need help - no mention of the victim needing any!

Thank you very much Graphista!

I'm appalled at the number of posters who feel sorry for the rapist. I have a 12 year old goddaughter who, with makeup and clothes could 'pass' for 16...until you talk to her for 5 minutes and then she's clearly a little girl.

His only concern was having sex. He chose to believe that a child he met in a taxi queue at 4am was a suitable target. He deserves absolutely nothing but contempt.

Amy - not all mothers are sitting here thinking 'poor man, brought down by a wicked girl'. My 18 year old son is equally horrified and can't believe that he truly thought she was old enough to consent.

Happy Birthday for tomorrow Amy. I've just ploughed through this thread from where I left it early yesterday evening and I cannot believe the direction it went in. It's disgusting that these kind of views have appeared on a feminism board. You're not alone.

"how on Earth could an adult have even the briefest conversation with a 12 year old and not find their youth obvious?

"This. With bells on."

But this does appear to be exactly what a police patrol did.

Well, shame on them.

Thank you very much Cruella.

You and Sparkyduchess are very right and I shouldn't have suggested many aren't horrified by this case. I did a disservice to all the women who are articulating so well the issues with it. Sorry if that sounds patronising as well - it certainly isn't intended to be. I'm also glad to hear that about your son Sparky and this shows again that many defending the man in this case are doing the many men like your son who find it horrifying a disservice.

Ive been thinking about this and even the oldest looking of my dds friends are very obviously children when you talk to them. Even when they think they are acting grown up. I struggle to see how a child would be able to keep up an adult conversation that could lead to sex. Thats unless he didnt really talk to her or just didnt care.

She has been massivly let down by a society that sexulises children then uses it to blame them. I hope shes getting the help she needs.

Again, I think the important point is that when you choose to have sex with a drunk random you pick up at a taxi rank you are leaving yourself open to all sorts of risks. The person may be underage, or have an STI, or be married, or be a serial killer.

So if a woman had a ONS with a guy who turned out to be a serial killer and murdered her, would you say "oh well, she knew she was taking a risk by sleeping with a random she picked up at a taxi rank, it's her own fault really"??

Yes, of course he opened himself up to all sorts of risks just like anyone does when they have casual sex with a stranger. Does that mean everyone who has casual sex basically deserves any shitty situation they find themselves in? Of course life isn't fair but that doesn't mean the law shouldn't try to be fair. And it doesn't mean we can't feel sympathy for someone who ends up in a bad situation after taking such a risk. Wouldn't you feel some sympathy for someone who contracted an STI after a ONS, for example? Or would you just say they had it coming because of their risky choice?

And yes, we require ID to be shown when buying alcohol. But the difference is that we don't throw people in jail if they fail to check ID - the most they can expect is a fine.

I really can't believe a couple of people are condemning this guy in the same breath as admitting they almost did exactly the same thing themselves

So if a woman had a ONS with a guy who turned out to be a serial killer and murdered her, would you say "oh well, she knew she was taking a risk by sleeping with a random she picked up at a taxi rank, it's her own fault really"??^

I never said anything about fault. If someone burgles your house through an open window then the burglar is at fault. But by leaving your window open you did increase the risk.

Wouldn't you feel some sympathy for someone who contracted an STI after a ONS, for example

Of course I'd feel sympathy about their condition. However if they went on and on about the unfairness of the situation I might begin to lose some.sympathy.

Choices we make have consequences.

Of course I'd feel sympathy about their condition. However if they went on and on about the unfairness of the situation I might begin to lose some.sympathy.

Fair enough. Though I don't think the guy in this case is complaining about the unfairness. I don't think he said much and is probably glad to have been dealt with fairly by the judge. You do feel some sympathy for him then?

Though I don't think the guy in this case is complaining about the unfairness

No. But many many on this thread are.

You do feel some sympathy for him then

Of course. But I also think that he is guilty of rape and should have been sentenced as such.

How many of us got in terrible situations as a teenager as we felt we were old enough to handle it, but we weren't? There's always men out there willing to exploit any vulnerability for their own gain.

How many adult women would agree to have unprotected sex with a stranger they'd just met at a taxi rank? But a child might agree as they wouldn't understand what they were really agreeing to. Or a young teenager as they might not understand the risks they were taking. It's exciting playing at being an adult when you're young, but when other adults start playing along it can result in terrible stuff happening, like the rape of a 12 year old girl.

I really can't believe a couple of people are condemning this guy in the same breath as admitting they almost did exactly the same thing themselves

If that's to me, then I think it's obvious that kissing a 16 year old and raping a 12 year old are fundamentally NOT the same thing at all. Had I slept with him, (as long as he was telling the truth) it would have been entirely legal. However, it didn't, and wouldn't have happened, as I think it's pretty disgusting for grown adults to perve on schoolchildren, be they over the age of consent or not, full stop. I'm all for a sliding scale of punishment for age gaps - it's not in the interest of anyone to punish teens experimenting sexually, but adults and teens is a way different matter, and I for one am fed up of society condoning it.

I feel no sympathy for this man. None at all. He's an adult.

"Of course. But I also think that he is guilty of rape and should have been sentenced as such."

Well that's what happened.

He pleaded guilty and was sentenced (absolute discharge) according to the Scottish sentencing guidelines (judge's sentencing remarks are linked earlier in the thread).

"He's an adult."

Only a teenaged one. Who made the same call about her age as (presumably vastly more experienced?) police officers.

The sentencing remarks give a fuller account tha the press.

True, the other thread has people whining about unfairness on his behalf and I find some of the comments along the lines of "it's her fault the little minx should be punished" revolting (hence why I posted here not there).

He's only guilty of rape because of strict liability and the strict liability threshold of 13 is based on the notion that it's unlikely that anyone under 13 could reasonably appear to be over 16. However, the judge concluded that in this case, unusually, it was entirely plausible that he (and several other people) reasonably believed her to be 16. She also noted that if the girl had been a couple of months older he would not have been guilty of any crime. So she felt, in my view rightly, that it would be manifestly unfair to sentence him as a rapist under these specific and unusual circumstances.

I also feel that to say someone can be a rapist simply as a result of bad luck risks devaluing the meaning and seriousness of that label.

He's an adult who raped a 12 year old.

Of course there are those who say 'exceptional circumstances'. No. No. No.

And I'm not for turning on this belief.

Can you even imagine the outcry if it was a 19 year old adult woman who had sex with a 12 year old boy? The headlines would be what sort of a monster is she and she should have known better.

I'm appalled those officers still have their jobs. They failed to correctly ascertain not only her age but the age of other underage girls there and act to protect them.

This kind of basic police work tends to be given to new officers.

I won't post links here but this judge seems pretty sympathetic to rapists generally.

I would expect a 19 year old to be able to make good choices about sexual partners. I don't expect that of a 12 year old and neither does the law.

If he's only 19 and he's a poor lamb, why is she painted as a 12 year old who knows full well what she was doing? He's got 7 years on her.

If you're going to have sex with '16' year olds the onus is fully on you to ensure they are legally capable of consenting. If you chat to someone and think they are 16 it is one thing, but if you're planning on intercouse you should be 100% they are old enough to consent. I would suggest refraining from intercourse with '16' year old strangers to be good advice for adult men.

Or even worse, because homophobia is way more listened to than heteropohobia (such a word doesn't exist).

19 year old rapes a 12 year old. Both males.

Only a teenaged one. Who made the same call about her age as (presumably vastly more experienced?) police officers.

people can usually judge the age of others better if they are of a similar age - especially in conversation.