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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Tanya Byron ignoring gendered violence

84 replies

MrsToddsShortcut · 14/03/2017 10:42

Apologies for the paywall, it's The Times. I'm genuinely gobsmacked that Tanya is totally overlooking the bullying a teenage girl is receiving at the hands of a another kid, despite the fact that it's physical assault.

Yes, bullies have issues and yes this child need support, but the poor bullied girl is basically being told to suck up the physical and emotional bullying because the other child's feelings are more important. She's being set up for a lifetime of toxic relationships where she is walked all over, unless the adults in her life help her to recognise that the other child's bullying is absolutely not her responsibility.

I can't believe Tanya Byron gave this advice!

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tanya-byron-my-granddaughters-transgender-friend-is-bullying-her-pm7mnj8hp

OP posts:
terrylene · 14/03/2017 13:12

No child should have to put up with bullying. It is corrosive and affects that person for the rest of their life.

Knowing what I know now, if I had a child that was suffering bullying, I would move heaven and earth to get them into a different school. If a school is not doing enough to prevent bullying and is blaming the bullied child, it is crap, no matter what the results on the tables.

terrylene · 14/03/2017 13:14

I was going to say I was surprised at the author, but realised I had got her name mixed up with one called Terri, who I really rate.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 14/03/2017 13:36

None of the comments agree with TB's advice. It's outrageous advice. A 15 year old girl is being pushed around by a teenage boy and it's the girl who needs to change? She needs to dump this horrible friend. And TB is completely ignoring the fact that what's happening is male violence.

When I read the comments, several brought up TB's advice to a previous problem as indicating that her advice is becoming very weird. I have to say, having read it and the responses BTL it looks as if TB is losing the plot. A 70 year old man is in love with a woman but after 3 months she won't commit or let him move in. TB's advice is that the woman needs therapy. The comments say he sounds controlling and needy. I'm with the comments.

BTW, I'm not keen on the expression "gendered violence". It's male violence, just as when transwomen commit crimes that too is male violence.

CaroleService · 14/03/2017 14:05

OK, I asked Mumsnet to delete my post 'cos I felt it unfair to comment without reading the article myself. Have now read it, and dislike it intensely.

KERALA1 · 14/03/2017 14:11

I had a recent trans issue in real life - was interesting how quickly right thinking liberal friends leapt to the defence of the person ignoring all negative impact on other people that led to. Solemnly told that we would have to put up with any pushing of our own boundaries because this person's feelings were more important than literally anything else.

Hate to use the cliche virtue signalling but for many who have not thought about it/realised how this will work in practice - this is a great way to show how cutting edge and super kind and tolerant they are.

user1487175389 · 14/03/2017 14:19

Let's get Dr Byron on for a web chat. I'm against no platforming - I actually want to see her defend her nonsensical argument on here.

HamletsSister · 14/03/2017 14:21

Am a subscriber so:

Our granddaughter is a bright, funny, articulate 15-year-old who enjoys life. One of her best friends, a genetic male, has this term started to live as a girl and is about to begin hormone treatment. It is clear that the school is uncertain how to react to the circumstances. Our granddaughter is keen to support her friend, but is being very hurt by some of the behaviour she is exhibiting, for example making fun of our granddaughter’s make-up and pushing her around physically.

We can see that this is probably the result of a very confused young person, who has lived as a boy for 15 years, trying to work out how to be a teenage girl. Our granddaughter, as a trusted friend, is seen as a safe person with whom the new girl can try things out without fear of rejection. However, her behaviour is hurting our granddaughter so much that she wants to draw back from the friendship simply to protect herself.

How can we support our granddaughter in supporting her friend and affirming her? How can she try to explain to her friend that some of her behaviour amounts to bullying, regardless of gender?
Ellen

A People often bully because they are directing their frustrations, hurt, anger or helplessness at others in an attempt to make themselves feel less vulnerable and more in control. I suspect that this is what may be going on between your granddaughter and her friend. In effect, the young transgender person is confused and insecure owing to a challenging process that is little understood, rarely supported properly and often judged.

As you rightly point out, your granddaughter provides a safe place in which to project the distress because she is loyal and less likely to abandon her friend, who may also be testing out their female identity against hers.

Gender identity relates to who we are, not what we are, and describes the personal sense of being a man or a woman or gender fluid (outside that gender binary). For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their internal gender identity do not match. Children who experience issues with their gender development may or may not be transsexual because after puberty some will identify themselves as gender fluid.

Gender dysphoria (or gender identity disorder) describes a clinical condition, which can present as early as the age of two. Some people choose to undergo treatment such as hormone blockers and surgery to ameliorate the symptoms associated with being transgender. However, not everyone makes this choice and therefore being transgender is not dependent on medical procedures (see gids.nhs.uk).

For your granddaughter’s friend this process will be extremely challenging at a personal and a societal level. Many young transgender people I work with encounter significant difficulties owing to a lack of understanding and compassion, discrimination and violence (see endtransdiscrimination.org/report.html).

Indeed, studies by the Scottish Transgender Alliance have highlighted that 62 per cent of transgender people have experienced transphobic harassment, with 84 per cent of transgender people having thought of ending their lives and 35 per cent attempting suicide at least once. In 2015 it was found that the number of transphobic hate crimes reported to the police had almost trebled in five years, with sexual assaults, violence, threatening behaviour and harassment part of a 170 per cent rise in hate crime.

Discrimination comes from narrow-minded ignorance, prejudice and hate, and for transgender people may include not respecting the name or pronoun they use, in order to bully and belittle them. For students, this can be compounded by a lack of understanding or clear explanations and leadership in schools, which in turn can generate confusion, causing people and communities to revert to learnt negative gender stereotyping.

The bullying needs to be understood as coming from a place of vulnerability. The school, the family and the wider community need to come together and think about the support this young person needs because their behaviour highlights a struggle as it is played out through their relationship with your granddaughter. There needs to be a clear plan of support that addresses everything, such as name and gender-marker (pronoun) change, including on documents, school records, awards and certificates etc; the date of transition; uniform requirements; and toilet and changing facilities.

Legislation that informs the participation of trans (including gender variant) pupils in schools include the Human Rights Act 1998, Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010. Schools fall under the public sector equality duty, whereby they must eliminate discrimination, provide equality of opportunity and foster good relations between minority groups and others. There should be a robust and preventative anti-bullying strategy that will deal with many of the issues that may arise for transgender pupils. Confidentiality and privacy must be upheld with clarity around disclosures to whom and by whom, including procedures for press intrusion.

All this should be written up in a memorandum of understanding, which is a confidential, informal document that is access-restricted and protects the transgender person and clarifies the school’s obligations (see the UK Trans Info website at tinyurl.com/zg2xpwq).

Schools can appoint a mentor for a transgender pupil and signpost other support groups for family (see tranzwiki.net, gires.org.uk, mermaidsuk.org.uk and beaumontsociety.org.uk).

In addition, and to address the whole school culture, human right concepts should be explored in lessons (see gires.org.uk/education/classroom-lesson-plans) and any training needs for teachers, pastoral staff and governors should be identified (see UK Trans Info at tinyurl.com/j6y9qk6 and genderedintelligence.co.uk).

As well as getting support in place for this young person, your granddaughter should be supported to think through how to address the uncomfortable relationship dynamic with her friend. For helpful advice see Ditch the Label at tinyurl.com/hshuu5o.

Your granddaughter needs to be able to depersonalise the comments and help her friend to understand that she recognises they come from her friend feeling vulnerable and confused. She can become an advocate for her friend, enabling them to get the support they need.

It may also be that your granddaughter is receiving hostile communications (face to face or through social media) from others who project their discrimination on to her friend through her, so she is in effect being bullied. This needs to be understood and robust steps taken to protect against it, and a community effort made to change hearts and minds. I admire her loyalty to her friend and see this experience as one that could strengthen her resilience and resolve to make the world a better, more inclusive place.
If you have a problem and would like Professor Tanya Byron’s help, email [email protected]

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 14/03/2017 14:28

Fucking. Hell.
She is basically saying that yes, it is fine for the girl to be a punchbag for her trans friend.
Nowhere does it say she has a right not to be abused. Nowhere does it say the trans child has to be told not to treat her like this, or that it is OK for the girl to step back. She talks as if she has a duty to let the transgirl work out their issues on her and instead of addressing the actual bullying instead invents some transphobic bullying that the letter hasn't even said actually happens.
Tanya (who I used to like and respect) should be utterly ashamed of herself.

RakingUpBadMemories · 14/03/2017 14:37

'It may also be that your granddaughter is receiving hostile communications (face to face or through social media) from others who project their discrimination on to her friend through her, so she is in effect being bullied.'

There is no hint in the grandparents' letter that this is happening. There is a clear statement that the TG 'friend' is the one doing the bullying.

Poor girl. Let's hope her grandparents shrug and look elsewhere for actual help.

KERALA1 · 14/03/2017 14:37

That is truly bonkers advice. I thought Tanya was sensible. Seems I was wrong. I wonder if she would say this if the bullied child were her own daughter Hmm. I'd guess not.

KERALA1 · 14/03/2017 14:39

Also the fact the grandparents write rather than the parents could indicate the parents aren't around or some other issues - so the poor girl might well be going through other difficulties. But none of that matters of course - not when there is a trans issue their feeling have to come first at all times.

BigDeskBob · 14/03/2017 14:40

It's as if she had read the problem as "how can my gd be a better trans ally", than how can I stop my gd being bullied.

It could be the beginnings of a good everydayfeminist aticle. Ten ways 15 year old girls can become trans allies. 1) let your friend ridicule your make up - that's the best way trans learn how to be as bitchy as cisgirls. I could go on, but I don't want to give them ideas.

MorrisZapp · 14/03/2017 14:42

It's all girls fault. Be nicer to the boys who hurt you.

MorrisZapp · 14/03/2017 14:43

Bob, that's absolutely what it is. 'how not to be a dick to your transgender bully'. I dare say TB wrote the advice then made up the question.

terrylene · 14/03/2017 14:45

You can only be a good support for a friend/advocate/whatever if your own needs are being met. We have been through similar with a girl with some sort of communication problem. Fortunately our school was more supportive to DD, and let her have some healthy space.

Backingvocals · 14/03/2017 14:46

I actually wonder if she wrote that. Sounds like it might have been parcelled out to a trans charity for input and it's been clumsily cut and pasted. That's no excuse for TB not to have read it and put it in a more sensible context, or for the editor not to have demanded a rewrite.

I agree a webchat would be good anyway.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 14/03/2017 14:55

I disagree re the webchat - I think MN webchats are pretty much a waste of time now unless you agree with the guest, given what happened in the Jess Phillips one with posters banned for 'barracking'.
It would just give her a chance to dispense more dubious advice to naive posters who would assume that if MNHQ invites someone they must be sound, and anyone questioning the advice would risk an immediate ban.
I don't think she is worth it tbh.

shinynewusername · 14/03/2017 15:03

Don't be surprised. TB's advice fits perfectly with the TA agenda: deny women the right to set boundaries and denounce them as bigots if they try. Oh, and any violence from TW is the fault of women for not accommodating them.

Mrskeats · 14/03/2017 15:07

I'm tweeting TB about this now.
I can't take much more

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 14/03/2017 15:08

It's very much the new backlash. I am imagining Tanya Byron in The Handmaid's Tale now, as one of the women who train the handmaids.

Backingvocals · 14/03/2017 15:10

I was thinking of doing the same. Let us know if you get a decent response Mrskeats

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/03/2017 15:11

The comments are near unanimous in saying what we are all saying on this thread. Very odd response indeed.

The Crown Prosecution Service has issued a teaching pack for schools that comes out with the same worrying stuff. Girls must accept trans girls in their changing rooms and the girls' loos or it's their fault if the trans girls get beaten up by the boys.

Meanwhile, the BBC initially reported this case without so much as a mention of the fundamental issue behind it, which is that the person convicted wanted to compete in fell racing as female and on being denied that sought out several officials and stabbed them. This will be recorded as a female crime and I assume Lauren Jeska will be sent to a women's prison.

And finally, two more crime reports from last week which totally omitted the trans status of the people concerned. Katie Brannen - 'woman accused of raping a man' (Independent news report).

Lisa Hauxwell case - reported on Crimewatch last week. Born Craig, convicted of rape and sexual assault under the name Lisa. Another boost to the stats showing a huge surge in violent crime committed by women?

It's already led to this heap of steaming bullshit in the Telegraph: The truth about female sex offenders which is anything but.

MiaowTheCat · 14/03/2017 15:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/03/2017 15:20

It's not a million miles either from women reporting sexual assault being told that they must have led the man on.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 14/03/2017 15:24

So accept and become an advocate?
Because she's a girl and should be caring?

It's not helpful a bully if we let them continue with the bullying behaviour, and it does not matter what insecurity triggered the bullying. This fails both young people here.

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