Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

Thanks for the Feedback heads up Bev. Wonder if any MNers contributed in the end.

I'm wondering if amongst us all we can find some really proactive and creative ways of creating resistance. I'm thinking of gender critical books aimed at very young children, training resources and collections of lifestories about being tomboys or similar?

But just one last thing.
If anyone had read the post where I discussed intersex they would have understood that I was using intersex to illustrate the complexities of gender identity. I was not suggesting that the community or any individual thereof supports trans community arguments or is engaged in trans activism.

Thanks Cooljazz I will do my best, but do not know her personally.

i'm pretty sure this is how Stormfront got started.

Place marking.

Brilliant Bev, will definitely listen out for that.

Someone asked about the legal status of guidance. It's not illegal to fail to follow guidance. However, if uou do follow guidance it hoves you a 'safe harbour ' so you will be safe from legal challenge.

The Guidance on providing services to trangender customers is terrifying and says to treat part time cross dressers as women. Service providers don't have to follow this but they have a strong legal incentive to.

Link to the guidance here www.transgendertrend.com/uk-transgender-rights-legislation/

I'm in. Great thread, thanks for starting it

Ignore the trolls

I think a webchat with Caroline Lucas would be like the one with Jess Philips & Flick Drummond only more so. Exactly like a webchat with a member of the Whatever Equality Party or Maria Miller.

The Greens have demonstrated their lack of support for women on plenty of occasions. We'd get a meaningless platitude at some point, then get more & more frustrated about being ignored and all get banned for barracking.

I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet so I am placemaking to read later and offering support if I can.

Another "interested but scared" here.

Every woman I speak to shares my views. Utter bemusement about what "feeling like a woman" means.

Yes, I think concentrating on Caroline Flint at the moment is the way to go. I see this initial phase for us as building a network of allies and creating a coherent consistent message.

Although at some point down the line I would love a webchat with Maria Miller. Although I'd probably come out of it banned.

I like the idea of wombers or womben

...I was using intersex to illustrate the complexities of gender identity.

For any lurkers still not sure and because I'm sick to death of the way intersex people are being used.

"We are not happy with the recent tendency of some trans groups/people to promote transgender as an umbrella term to encompass, for example, transsexuality, transvestitism and intersex."

"We are constantly trying to get away from the idea that intersex is necessarily to do with gender identity, a notion that others (including the press/media) like to impose on us."

My only concern with "wombers" or similar is that it might alienate or upset women who otherwise generally feel the same way about gender self-ID etc as we do here but who have had hysterectomies, especially for medical reasons.

I appreciate I may be overthinking this though.

I named changed to post as it's a difficult topic full of nutters from elsewhere looking in.

Im so in. I'm appalled by this issue.

I had this chat with a friend and she's firmly on the "trans" right trumps all as they "suffer" more but then couldn't tell me why it's right that women's sports are being taken over by men, etc. The bathroom thing is a bit of a loaded mine of a argument. I got in trouble at work recently as a MAN has decided he is trans women and because of it all women's bathrooms are gender neutral. I said why not make all bathroom gender neutral and apparently the cost of having to re furb would be too much. Fucking joke.

Also to all those who say that it's a myth that self identification will lead to people temporarily choosing to be a women/man for time period needs to come to my office as the trans person above is a man sometimes and a women other times (splits the week). Another fucking joke. Plus. Because of this we all had to sit through "trans training". I boycotted.

I like the simplicity of 'XX'

marking place. Feel the CPS pack for schools needs challenging immediately. Any journalists willing to stick out their neck and take up the cause? [Jenni Murray's appalling treatment notwithstanding]