Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

I peak transed my mum this weekend

I also had a very satisfying conversation with a male friend this weekend. My DH said that he had never before seen this friend change his viewpoint so much from its starting point during the course of a conversation! (Usually this friend is very good at arguing his point.)

MangoSplit

What was it that made him change his mind? Was there a lightbulb moment?

I think that previously he had considered it from the POV of a boy who feels that he should have been born a girl, but not really from the POV of a girl who wants to be a girl but has some 'typically male' traits (I was focusing on the male brain / female brain nonsense). Also the sport thing, which to be honest I can't see how any reasonable person can disagree with, but I don't think he was fully aware of the situation beforehand.

Mango - I agree, most people see it as simple commonsense that sport is segregated by sex for very good reasons, and no amount of feelz (or even full bottom surgery and hormone therapy) can level the playing field between males and females.

Meanwhile in Guardian land, Paris Lees thinks all transgender teens need is unconditional love and support...

From just reading that link headline, I completely agree with Paris, unconditional love and support is ALL they need, what they don't need is transitioning.

My email to my (male) MP got a typical bland response, ignoring all the points I had made, and being very inclusive. Why am I not surprised?

Was it the same response that other people have posted on other threads? It seems there is a prepared statement.

Well, sadly some of the people I have been following on Twitter in relation to gender critical feminism think it's acceptable to call me a racist and a fool because I voted to leave the EU. I'm not really sure I want to be campaigning politically or generally in contact with people who can't treat me and the other 17 plus million leave voters with a modicum of decency.

Sad, but there you go.

Don't people realise that you don't win people over by insulting them, and that the way to change public opinion on an issue is not to piss of everyone who doesn't agree with you on absolutely everything else?

Will probably give up.

Thank you CoolJazz, you have made me feel much better. Will reply further later.

wood. I voted remain but I keep the fuck away from Brexit debates as they are so toxic. Same for Scottish referendum stuff. Actually, much of MN is fairly contentious and you need a hide of steel to weather the flamings that are handed out.

We don't all have to agree on everything in order for us to agree and work together on other important issues - we are not clones. Try not to let it get to you.

Wood, FWIW I voted Remain but I was quite shocked at the level of discussion afterwards and insults thrown at Leavers. I think it's totally counter-productive. We are just going to have to get on with it now. You had every right to vote for what you think is best. Please don't give up on gender critical topics, we need you!

Cross post with Mercy.

I just read that as 'to weather the flamingos that are handed out'.

Oops.

Ha I didn't notice that typo. Your version makes more sense

Interestingly there was an article in the DM today about a 90 something old man who finally had the courage to be a woman. Just like that he is a woman, cool eh?

"'My whole life has been a lie': World War II veteran comes out as transgender at the age of NINETY - and says she's not ruling out surgery" on nhs?

Under the article there were loads of supportive comment, like bless, wish you well, be yourself etc. Odd, for DM readership. Not so odd comment such as Great Legs, looking sexy etc.

Weirdly my gran is that age and never wears a skirt, has short hair and wears unisex support shoes. What makes this bloke a 'woman'? The skirt, fake boobs and nylon tights? None of these he is a man who is cross dressing, cross dressing is fine though odd but aren't we all varying degrees of odd. however is he going to be treated at a a female only NHS ward when the time comes? Share a room with a woman in a care home?His wants being more important than the needs of dozens of elderly and vulnerable women.

Cross dress by all means but stay out of women only spaces. They are female spaces to protect women. No dicks please.

Just seen this. WEP are coming back for another webchat.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/2890099-Webchat-with-Catherine-Mayer-author-and-co-founder-of-the-Womens-Equality-Party-Thursday-30-March-1-2pm

Off topic, but a 52/48 vote in a non-binding referendum won by a side that promised having cake and eating it doesn't mean we just have to 'get on with' leaving the EU. Long road to go, and things'll change when it becomes clear just how self-sabotaging it is.

I don't think leave voters are dumb. I do think they were sold a pup.

Thank you so much CoolJazz and you kind remainers for your words.

I think what was most upsetting for me is that I had to psyche myself up to go on Twitter, and was wary of getting abuse from transactivists. Of course some of the tweets retweeted by terfisaslur and others are pretty dreadful but I was expecting to see tweets like that. I was just was totally unprepared for insults directed at me (in a general sense, as in at all leave voters) from women I was following specifically because they are gender critical.

I was probably very naive, but given the nastiness of some of the tweets sent to women on Twitter, it didn't cross my mind that gen crit women would start tweeting or retweeting nasty insults at other people.

Anyway, I feel much better to know I am not the only gen crit leave voting liberal alive, CoolJazz and to hear that there are at least some gen crit remain voting women who don't assume I am a despicable racist fool, venus and mercy.

I'm going to take a break from MN and Twitter for a while, as although I don't feel as upset or angry, I am just finding the level of vitriol about Brexit at the moment really depressing and it's not doing my faith in humanity or my state of mind any good. What really depresses me is the inability of so many people to extrapolate from one scenario to another, or just comprehend that people can have different views on some issues, but still be good, decent people, possibly even allies. It's all a bit of a mess. It seems like you have to approach everyone with such a level of wariness and arm yourself against attack, and at the moment I just don't feel up to it. Social media purdah for me