Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

Are her previous tweets supportive of our position? If so, then no objection.

I didn't want to be a girl/women either when I was a teen, not because I "felt" like a man but because it was hard being a women and I didn't see any alternatives to suffering through it. None of that is because of my gender but because of the patriarchal system we live in

^^This

wonder if OverthinkingSpartacus, should start a thread explaining how to set up an anonymous account and how to send her the details, so that we can register in on thread that for her to track? That could organise the twitter side of the campaign?

I'm happy to do this.

I've made a start on the list of Twitter names from the PMs I've already received. It's only the Twitter name that will be shared with other mumsnetters and your MN username won't be given out with the Twitter name.

I have a little time this afternoon and can start writing a seperate thread just for the Twitter stuff, with a guide on creating a Twitter account etc and get it posted hopefully today but if not, it will be tomorrow.

I can also include instructions to the download the apk for the (it's not on play store) vpn app I use on Android that can be side loaded and will hide your IP address for those concerned about that.

Where would it be best to post it? Feminism is the obvious answer but if people have that topic hidden or avoid this section would it be off in chat? But then it'll disappear after so long so may not be that great there either?

Yes, when I originally suggested pages ago that we stick to "unisex" I was a) referring to the terminology of spaces that are segregated by dint of biology and b) not suggesting any such unisex spaces should be a replacement; they should be in addition to M/F. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

How about having the actual thread in FWR and linking to it periodically in a series of Chat threads? Is that allowed under MN rules?

Spread far and wide!

Today I've woken up feeling like a man.
Good for you. Unfortunately it doesn't mean that your gender will be recognised. For that you will have to go through a rigorous legal process in order to have your changed gender identity make any difference to your access to any services etc

The process can take months and or years. But good luck anyway 😀.

Hope you get the support that you need scissorsisters

Cool name btw.

The TRAs / mermaid trolls seem to be active on mumsnet lately ...

I add my vote for 3 options; men, women and unisex spaces that can be used by anyone.

Hey, MaryTheCanary

Your post is an excellent model of how to turn people off this campaign:
Offensive, trivialising language, lazy stereotyping and extremist positions.
Check, check and check.
Congratulations you have hit the jackpot 👏

Have I just been called a troll? Oh my. And what is a mermaid in this context?
Another example of the level of discourse in this thread.

I read an interesting blog written by a trans woman (FAQ on sillyolme.wordpress.com) which looks at scientific evidence. They claim that "in Western nations, 70 to 90% of transsexuals are the AGP type, the majority will be transitioning in mid-adult life."
AGP= autogynephile, ie men that get aroused dressing as women.
They say this type of trans is completely distinct from younger trans kids. (There's lots on the blog we probably would want to challenge, but I thought this was very interesting)
I think whilst most would be sympathetic to the needs of "transkids" (as described in the blog), autogynephiles are of particular concern.
Raising attention of this phenomenon is tricky without the bigot label though :/

Looked up mermaids in the trans context. Looks like an interesting group. Of course all groups have their own agenda😉
But thanks for the heads up and apologies that I assumed it was insult! 😂
Still laughing that anyone can think I'm a troll also a bit hurt

Bev do you have the official statistics for this 'rise' in women raping women that you speak of?
And actually isn't it more important to get a conviction of an abuser rather than worry too much about their gender?

Thanks OverThinkingSpartacus for starting this thread. Im feeling buoyed up by the thought of some organising. Its well needed. Perhaps a demonstration outside parliament on the day of the debate may help? - though as someone said before they may not get round to the subject.

Jenni Murray has done us all a favour by putting our views into the mainstream. I am sure there are more people who agree with us than have so far dared to say.

As to you Iris - I spent years spouting similar rhetoric to you but having finally thought it through. I realised it doesnt make sense. Sure I support people human rights however they dress and whatever surgery they undergo - but I cant in all honesty support magical thinking when it undermines my rights.

"There also seems to be a belief that there are many, many trans people who are just waiting to 'invade female toilets and changing rooms' so that they can wave their penises around and to dominate women's spaces and women's organisations etc."

There dont need to be many many. Any is a concern. And they dont need to be trans people - any man can take advantage of this flimsy piece of proposed legislation. Look at the rising tide of male sex offenders now claiming trans status and asking to be moved to womens prisons and tell me how you think that isnt happenning already.

"This is all part of a familiar narrative of demonisation and the kinds of things that are being posted in these threads are from the very same narrative of racism and homophobia."

You are accusing people of racism and homophobia on no evidence because they dont agree with you- thats egregious. Being able to see colour of someones skin does not make anyone racist. In fact we say those who claim to be colourblind are ignoring racism. Being able to see a difference between men and women likewise does not make someone transphobic. Denying there is a difference is to ignore sexism exists

"Protecting the rights of one group - those who are trans - does not entail reducing the rights of another - women. "

Unfortunately this proposed leglislation does exactly this. Or do you think women in prison being forced to share a cell with male bodied convicted rapists doesnt reduce a womens rights?

"It is a tragedy that we are being divided as a community by this issue.
Focus on fighting for the equality of all and justice for all rather than attacking other victims of bigotry and oppression."

This is exactly what we are doing . We are trying to look at ways to protect everyone - with third gender neutral spaces . Apparently your definintion of all doesnt include female born people.

We don't need to come up with an sneer for trans spaces either though. Not that ups a bad idea to show clearly there are simple logical reasonable options. We just need to be clear about female spaces being first females.

I've trans people need their own safe spaces they can fight for that, & likely have our support, as long as their solutions don't breach our boundaries.

Feel like there should be a play on virgina woolf's words

I've been concerned about this issue for ages but other than ranting about it to immediate family, haven't been able to see what I can do about it. Today this thread has given me the courage to write to my MP.

Reading the comments on an article in the Guardian, I noticed that many people were of the opinion that self identification doesn't harm anyone. So I think the strongest message is to focus on specific examples of the harm this can do, such as the impact on female athletes, crime statistics, refuges and prisons.

Following this with interest.