Transphobic and Transcritical - what is the difference?

[OurBlanche]

It seems to be a recurrent theme. Women here talk about various trans issues and some find many of the posts to be transphobic

I don't see that, I see a lot of women taking the opportunity to have a discussion they can't have in m/any other places. I see a lot of transcritical posts, some stated calmly, some not so. But they don't evidence transphobic.

So, on another thread I asked if it would be useful to discuss the difference between the two words.

My take is that I am not transphobic, I do not fear or hate any/all transpeople. I couldn't really care how someone presents themselves, what nomenclature they prefer.

I am transcritical, because of the actions of a very vocal minority of transactivists. I will disagree with them and it will have nothing to do with their preferred way of dressing, being hailed!

Transphobic people are the men who rape and kill MtT because they are MtT. Transphobia will always exist, but I've yet to see any feminist express it.

I'm not sure transcritical is a useful word. To me it implies that whatwe are doing in criticising trans people, which is only the case in the somewhat elaborate imaginations of those who scream bigot when you point out that a 3 yr old boy having a liking for pink doesn't mean you should be considering medicating them for life.

I am critical of gender as it is enforced in Patriarchy. The rigidity of gender is such that noticing your 3 yr old boy likes pink is enough for some people to think that medicatinghim is the best way to cure him of gender nonconformity.

In otherwords, I do not think there is an objective standard here. You are being transphobic to some just by denying that transmen and women are men and women, or by saying they shouldn't be allowed to do this that or the other that some of them want to. Because tthose using the term agree with those aims/wishes.
This sounds to me a touch post-modernist (the word means what the person using it says it means). I don't agree with: words need to have widely-accepted meanings, otherwise we can't discuss anything.

I am definitely another one who agrees that
I am gender critical because it is offensive to me as a woman to have my sex reduced down to a steriotype which is then performed

The problem with deciding whether or not you are transphobic towards transgendered people is you first to define 'transgender'.

Is it an autogynephile? Is it a 19-year-old student who wants to feel special and has six different genders on a daily basis? Is it a person with crippling gender dysphoria? Is it a person who profoundly believes in individualism? Is it a confused gay teenager?

All those come under the term transgender. Someone will have a completely different opinion of a fetishist cross dresser who likes forced feminisation, to 17 year old confused lesbian.

DJ BaggySmalls says: To me, transphobic would be denying trans people exist. I am having trouble with exactly this. At the moment I am struggling to get to grips with the validity of the concept 'born in the wrong body'. It doesn't seems possible to scientifically prove or disprove it, so if I decide that I don't believe in it then I am essentially denying trans people exist. On the other hand, I am not hateful to anyone, I don't want anyone to be discriminated against for their life choices etc etc - I don't think I'm transphobic but according to BaggySmalls I might be.

To me, The Silence of the Lambs was a good example of actual transphobia. Man a bit fucked up and not happy in own body - of course he's going to make a suit out of skin and prance about it in! 'Ware the trannies!

Being concerned about the erosion of women's rights, safe spaces, and statistics on crime etc isn't trans phobic. Being concerned that a narrative is taking over which is opposed to everything feminism stands for - that 'gender' is a 'feeling' and being kind/liking dolls etc means you must be a woman is not transphobic - it's transcritical.

I think where the two things do get a bit complicated is the toilets debate. Because our genuine concerns about who can and can't come in are really about the problem that we might no longer be able to challenge any men - but they get reframed and made to look absurd on the deliberate misunderstanding that we think all trans people are abusers and rapists, which was never the issue.

If anyone can point me in the right direction of some scientific discussion/research of 'born in the wrong body' I would be very grateful. I keep reading lots of personal (often very passionate) viewpoints on both sides, but I haven't come across anything very academic. I'm not an academic, but I'm just going round in circles in my head with the whole argument and I want some real hard facts to deal with.

Eh?
You dont think they really exist, but would let them use the womens bathroom anyway?

ghostlygoulie if you listen in the to the BBC Radio 5 live discussion with Dr Polly Carmichael you may find it answers some of your questions.

LumelaMme This sounds to me a touch post-modernist (the word means what the person using it says it means).

It does have a meaning. Someone who calls you a homophobe pr a transphobe for opposing X, Y or Z is imparting a value judgment that you are wrong for opposing whatever it is. You can elect to not actually give a monkeys if you genuinely think that X, Y or Z should not happen.

It would be simpler if people just stuck to using these terms about those who demonstrate prejudice or bigotry, but just making an observation that they do get used with the other meaning and pretty much any negativity towards the group or the aims of part of it, may be fair game for being 'phobic.

I'm not sure I understand, DJ - was that addressed to me?

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace No, sorry I thought it was clear that was a response to the previous post. My comment doesnt relate to yours at all. but if you read the post before mine it makes sense.

Yes, sorry - not on all cylinders today!

Then stop wantonly slinging around the term "transphobic" about people who do not dislike transpeople in general nor are prejudiced against them.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace me neither, I should stop and go have a lie down

You were pearl clutching about "transphobia" all over that other thread, Bluntness. Or don't you read your own posts before you press the button?

I was pointing out that your personal definition of transphobia does not include most people on mumsnet.

I'm not sure transcritical is a useful word. You are right, and, if it were possible, I would now change the word to *gendercritical, as suggested on page 1.

As this is the point of the thread... to actually discuss the words and the isues attached ... isn't it nice to type your post and not have anyone leap back at you?

Bluntness I think your first post perfectly outlines the difference in viewpoints and, maybe, the misunderstadnings betwen many posters! Apologies for dissecting your post!

Transphobia is a dislike or prejudice against transgender people, which is your definition of "transcritical" No! There is a distinction, which is why I think the change to "Gendercritical" might be more useful, or maybe not, we shall see!

I am not prejudiced, nor do I dislike any trans person, at least none that I have ever met, nor do I have an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to the idea of them, nor do I disbelieve that they exist etc.

Transphobia is basically a spectrum of negative attitudes towards trans gender people. That is your definition and I think it may be a bit to broad, hence your not seeing the distinction between phobia and critical

"Trans critical" I'm not sure is even a thing, Well, I think it is, I defined it and I agreed with A N Other poster that possibly "gendercritical" might be a better word.

Defining the terms, seeing if we can reach any consensus, is the whole point of this thread. So I'm not going to let you get away with dismissing it out of hand

and by your own description would fall into the transphobia definition spectrum no.. that would be by your interpretation of my definition. I am quite clear that they are 2 entierly discrete things. I can be unafraid of, not hate or dislike transgendered people and yet still disagree with anything they say... just as I can with any other cohort or individual.

In this case it is the loud, insistant, angry transactivists I disagree with and wish to be able to carry on a meaningful discourse with/about without being called names!

The rigidity of gender is such that noticing your 3 yr old boy likes pink is enough for some people to think that medicating him is the best way to cure him of gender nonconformity.

This times a million. There's nothing wrong with the boy in this example, but there's plenty wrong with a society that thinks there is literally nothing worse than a man who likes pink, to the extent that we can't let him be a man any more.

Gender critical is the more accurate and fair term.

Yep. Gender critical covers it.

Crikey... Only at page 2 and we seem to be growing a consensus of opinion on a choice/change of word

You were pearl clutching about "transphobia" all over that other thread, Bluntness. Or don't you read your own posts before you press the button?

I like the term gendercritical - it pretty much sums up my views.

I am a biologically born female, I have no issue with transgender females, be it in public loos, changing rooms, calling them selves women, whatever. It doesn't lessen me as a woman, it doesn't under mine me, I don't feel my rights are being trampled on. I'm not going to change that view unless something in real life happens to change it.
Fair enough, Bluntness. But then what happens when a MTT, male sex organs still; intact, wants to use a women's refuge? Apply for a scholarship previously reserved for women? Or when a MTT, inevitably bigger and stronger than many or even most women despite surgery and hormones, wants to play on a women's sports team? Certainly, if my nieces (who compete in martial arts) lose in competitions in future to MTT people, I will damn well feel that their rights have been trampled on.

Can you not see that there might be a few problems?

Also, people disagreeing with you does not amount to bullying. People saying that they think you're talking nonsense does not amount to bullying. And the whole point of this particular thread, it seems to me, is to discuss a range of views and try to come to some sort of a consensus.

And yes, I agree that gender critical is a better term. I'm happier to use it than transcritical, because I think that many trans people have enough shit to deal with without us using a loaded term. The fact that much of the shit comes by way of TRAs is perhaps relevant....

Well, I don't like the "-phobic" thing as used in "homophobic" - it means people who hate homosexuals, while the actual meaning of the word would be having an irrational fear of homosexuals. Which is not what the word is used like.

If we are to pretend that -phobic means hating that group and people and beating them up then, well, transphobia clearly is killing trans, beating trans up, et cetera.

I have no problem at all with men who wear dresses, everyone can dress how they want.
I just don't think that makes them women.
In short, I reject the unprovable, belief-based notion that transactivists would have us believe.

I am not sure "transcritical" is completely accurate, but it sure fits better than "transphobic"