Debating With Arsehole Men: need a how-to guide!

[KatLovesCats]

Title a bit tongue-in-cheek

When I was a teenager I consistently tried to stand up for my beliefs against a father who shouted down opinions that differed from his (right-leaning and often hideous) views. I've come to view this as a kind of baptism-by-fire, and am now extremely proud of teenaged-girl-me for having the strength to continually try in the face of quite extreme male aggression (he stopped short of hitting me but wanted to - fist in face etc - and if he had resorted to physical violence I have no doubt that I would no longer have stood up to him).

I used to get very upset trying to 'debate' issues with men - usually those who were indifferent to women's or LGBTQ rights - and often cried, which of course they used against me - that tired old 'emotions are weak' bollocks. Nowadays I don't and on the mercifully rare occasion these things happen I am articulate and firm in a way that I look back on afterwards and can't believe I managed it

But online this eludes me. I generally avoid debating online as it's just banging your head against a brick wall and generally unhelpful/doesn't actually achieve anything other than me become stressed/upset and them remaining a smug arsehole.

I don't want to be unemotional about issues that matter to me. Now I just point out why I am that way - that what for them is hypothetical is my lived experience - but it annoys the fuck out of me. For those who regularly wade into the fire: how do you stay heartened? I find it exhausting and often take days to recover from the stress of it which leads me to ignore and not challenge far more often than I would like. I really don't get into these debates often as I can't be doing with the stress, but I will when I feel I have to!

TL;DR: how do you find the strength to continually deal with arsehole men and counter the 'stop being emotional/why can't you debate this coldly and logically' arse-wipery?

This post has been inspired by a white middle-class "Christian" man saying he's fed up of "people whinging" about Trump and saying "he was fairly elected, stop moaning about it" this type of shit rarely happens as I generally just remove these people from my Facebook but I am genuinely surprised at this coming from this person.

Which is I think what you were getting at. The point is that this is an element of male privilege, that they are not expected to modify their lives in the same way. And men are violent to other men and to women. On a class level it's all male violence.

Which is I think what you were getting at. The point is that this is an element of male privilege, that they are not expected to modify their lives in the same way. And men are violent to other men and to women. On a class level it's all male violence.

Well if you'll allow to zoom out to the totality of just this online thread. Which is ostensibly supposed to be a guide to dealing with asshole men. It's useful if nothing else than a recognition that asshole men have primacy in some contexts and often women have to deal with that often from a position of disadvantage.

This whole thread has merit if only to boslster women to speak up and be more confidant. I'm all for it, but all of this centering on non-asshole men is kinda sort of privilege in action.

When men make stupid, ill though out remarks or do nasty things every fucking excuse in the world is rolled out: "he's of a certain generation", "it was a different time", "he's not as bad as men from

"And men are violent to other men and to women. On a class level it's all male violence."

Yes, but not all of them are. You can state that overall men are more violent both to other men and other women. That is true. But you wouldn't approach any random individual man and accuse him of being violent would you?

Class politics always runs into problems when applied to individuals, because not all individuals conform to patterns of class behaviour. In fact, an awful lot of them don't do so.

Similiarly a lot of men are not privileged in any way. They are poor, homeless, unable to get a job.

I think we've already had this discussion Josef. I was responding to a specific example where one might say male privilege was relevant to perception of fear.

I maintain that male privilege is a useful concept, as is class analysis.

Agree with Venus and suspect we are going round in circles now

I think you have to pick & choose your battles. You can't reason, with batshit

I am also interested in any practical 'how-to' if anyone has any further advice or experiences. I have to deal with this crap daily at work.

I do too Pussy I'm really struggling with a situation right now and the privilege and entitlement is so deeply entrenched they just can't see it.

I think it's very difficult to get your point across to ignorant people without deconstructing and examining the situation at length, which is rarely going to work in the workplace

I'm sorry you are having a hard time with idiots

What's the situation Charlie?

I usually just start irl trolling if they are being obtuse or willfully ignorant. All the while laughing in a jovial way so they can't get "too emotional".

It started with a member of my team raising an equal pay query, which was entirely justified and reasonable. The manager of the man she chose as a comparator was clearly outraged at the very idea she would have the utter temerity to compare herself thus. The claim failed for very weak reasons, and the backlash has been ongoing. I have been horrified by the reaction to it, it's really pissed a group of people off and it's very clear that they have a totally disproportionate view of their own skill set and worth. I would describe their view as deluded.

JosefK wrote - "an individual man you're conversing with may very well have no privilege"

I think many people believe that male privilege is about being a rich, successful, well-educated, healthy, middle- or upper-class white man. They also believe that if a man is not all or most of these things then he does not have male privilege.

My view is that male privilege may result in things like wealth or good education but male privilege is basically about being male. All men have male privilege, whether they like it or not. The only way a man could give up his male privilege is to stop being male.

Poor education removes a man's education privilege but it does not remove his male privilege. A rich man has higher status than a rich woman. A poor man has higher status than a poor woman.

In a one-to-one comparison of a rich, white woman and a poor, black man, many people conclude that the man does not have as many privileges as the woman (she has financial and racial privileges) and therefore the man has lost his male privilege. Although I agree that the woman does have two privileges, I think this is a false comparison trap and I disagree with their conclusion about the man. The woman having two privileges does not mean that the man has no male privilege. The man has not lost his maleness.

When I compare the man and woman in my example, the process I use is trying to control for various variables.

To find e.g. male privilege, I compare many groups of male people and female people, not just a one-to-one comparison of two people:

compare rich white men and rich white women
compare rich black men and rich black women
compare poor white men and poor white women
compare poor black men and poor black women
etc.

I conclude that the man in my example has male privilege and the woman has financial and racial privilege.

Another example could compare Chinese peasant boys with Chinese peasant girls. The boys are born and raised to work on the farm. Many of the girls are drowned at birth (if the female foetus was even allowed to develop into a baby). Even though the boy may have a life that is much harder than the life of a rich white woman in Europe, the poor Chinese peasant boy has male privilege because girls in his village were murdered for not being male .

Naff off, phat MRA

Charlie that is fucking awful, is there anywhere else the challenge can go? I suspect if there is the opportunity cost is so high no one can practically use it.

Are you in a leadership role with your team? The sort of response to this must be incredibly demoralizing to all the hardworking women at your company.

Is there anyone up the chain who might be at all sensitive to that fact?

Isn't the point here just that "male privilege" has a fairly specific meaning, and if you use the term with someone who isn't familiar with it then it's easy for them to invent their own (mis-)interpretation? The same is true of more or less any technical term. You just need to be aware that a lot of people outside (radical?) feminist circles haven't heard the term, and are likely to hear it for the first time, put their own interpretation on it, and hear something different from what you mean.

"Avoid jargon when talking to laypeople" is always good advice.

...my last to vesuvia/JosefK, not in response to Dervel's post.

I for one haven't said that we should use the term to people. I cautioned against doing so! Just saying that for the purposes of this thread which is examining male behaviour from a feminist perspective it is often a relevant factor in male discussions with women.

I think what Vesuvia said covers the male privilege thing nicely. The poor, working class male who hasn't had any breaks certainly wouldn't feel he has any privilege but the point is that he would still be better off than a woman with his background. ie if he had been born female, he'd likely be even poorer because of wage gap, expectation that she rather than he would take on majority childcare etc.

I think what Vesuvia said covers the male privilege thing nicely. The poor, working class male who hasn't had any breaks certainly wouldn't feel he has any privilege but the point is that he would still be better off than a woman with his background. ie if he had been born female, he'd likely be even poorer because of wage gap, expectation that she rather than he would take on majority childcare etc.

Dervel I am in a leadership role in my team and this attitude is massively demoralising; this incident has really brought it home to me. I feel I'm fighting a losing battle against a bunch of deluded entitled arseholes. They literally cannot see that they are devaluing her and overvaluing him.

There is nowhere else for the claim to go, she's voted with her feet anyway and leaves next week for a £20k pay rise. It's less easy for me as I live in the arse end of nowhere and I'm considerably older. Old and female!

As for arguing online, I love a good political debate but will only do it with someone actually interested in debating. If you're talking to someone who just wants to rant, there's no point. They're not even reading what you're saying.

Charlie what's the ratio of men/women like in your office? Working in that environment will be soul destroying for those who stick it out or as with your colleague leave to where their talents would be appreciated.

I'd take this up with your boss as seeing as the woman concerned is leaving you can genuinely raise that women are now directly concerned about their professional development opportunities. Make it less about the individual merits of the equal pay request, but the behaviour of certain people since has absolutely decimated staff morale.

Obviously the original woman has been able to negotiate a better contract elsewhere so her own estimation of her own value WILL be picked up by competitors. At the moment knowing only what you've posted I foresee a skill drain in the next 6-18 months.

If it's not already the company (or department if it's that big a company) will be circling the drain and be in real trouble.