Debating With Arsehole Men: need a how-to guide!

[KatLovesCats]

Title a bit tongue-in-cheek

When I was a teenager I consistently tried to stand up for my beliefs against a father who shouted down opinions that differed from his (right-leaning and often hideous) views. I've come to view this as a kind of baptism-by-fire, and am now extremely proud of teenaged-girl-me for having the strength to continually try in the face of quite extreme male aggression (he stopped short of hitting me but wanted to - fist in face etc - and if he had resorted to physical violence I have no doubt that I would no longer have stood up to him).

I used to get very upset trying to 'debate' issues with men - usually those who were indifferent to women's or LGBTQ rights - and often cried, which of course they used against me - that tired old 'emotions are weak' bollocks. Nowadays I don't and on the mercifully rare occasion these things happen I am articulate and firm in a way that I look back on afterwards and can't believe I managed it

But online this eludes me. I generally avoid debating online as it's just banging your head against a brick wall and generally unhelpful/doesn't actually achieve anything other than me become stressed/upset and them remaining a smug arsehole.

I don't want to be unemotional about issues that matter to me. Now I just point out why I am that way - that what for them is hypothetical is my lived experience - but it annoys the fuck out of me. For those who regularly wade into the fire: how do you stay heartened? I find it exhausting and often take days to recover from the stress of it which leads me to ignore and not challenge far more often than I would like. I really don't get into these debates often as I can't be doing with the stress, but I will when I feel I have to!

TL;DR: how do you find the strength to continually deal with arsehole men and counter the 'stop being emotional/why can't you debate this coldly and logically' arse-wipery?

This post has been inspired by a white middle-class "Christian" man saying he's fed up of "people whinging" about Trump and saying "he was fairly elected, stop moaning about it" this type of shit rarely happens as I generally just remove these people from my Facebook but I am genuinely surprised at this coming from this person.

Josef I would imagine that male privilege is being used to mean what it usually means in feminist discussion, don't you think?

The point I was trying to make is that privilege is something that you experience because you are structurally advantaged in a particular way. It's a class analysis and therefore when discussing issues which primarily or wholly affect women as a class it is relevant to bear that in mind. It generally means you should listen more when the people without privilege are speaking about how this has personally affected them.

"Josef I would imagine that male privilege is being used to mean what it usually means in feminist discussion, don't you think?"

I'm not sure what that is - hence my question.

Venusinscorpio what does 'structurally advantaged' mean? Can you give an example.

Josef can I counsel against in minimizing psychological factors, as they can lead to the precise 'concrete' problems later on. We had a report this week on inferiority setting in with girls as early as 6 years old.

Confidence and self esteem makes a MASSIVE difference. I have it in spades and so too coincidentally does my sister. However whilst I am typical for my gender (a lot of my male peers are this way), my sister is a bit of a rarity. Even in the years before I engaged with feminist analysis it was as plain as day that women as smart as me (and in some cases smarter), also struggled with self esteem and a sense of imposter syndrome. This really does weigh you down.

Unearned privilege exists in our society, and I suspect to some extent always will in some way or another. However there are two routes you can go with it. Either you take a very small minded view of it and exploit the comfort and benefit it affords you personally, or you view it as something of a responsibility to share it, as to view it as a finite resource is an error.

If every capable and competent person no longer is weighed down by structural disadvantage we ALL benefit. These people can all add things to the world that benefit everyone that wouldn't be there otherwise. We need to encourage human potential not limit it.

Can I suggest a quick internet search Josef around feminist definitions of male privilege.

I'm not saying that male privilege doesn't exist, or that many men don't have superiority complexes. I'm only saying that an individual man you're conversing with may very well have no privilege or self-esteem at all. In that instance, telling him to check his privilege is perhaps not the most appropriate way to communicate to him the disadvantages experienced by many women.

Josef but are we talking to an individual man in personal terms right now? Of course I've had male friends with neurotic inferiority complexes I've tried to bouy up their sense of self. I've had to do it for a lot more female friends, so it's not inaccurate to my eyes that there is something greater at play here.

No one here was suggesting telling him to "check his privilege". I think you'll find that I said exactly the opposite. However the fact that he may be disadvantaged in other ways does not mean that his male privilege is not an issue when he talks to women about things which primarily affect women as a class.

What male privilege does a man who is poor and unemployed and mentally unwell have? How would that privilege manifest itself?

Dervel: this is my point. Talking about an individual man and men in a very general sense is the crucial distinction to make.

It's not "men in a very general sense", it's men as a class. It's a class analysis. As I said it is one way of examining an issue which disproportionately or exclusively affects a certain sector of the population.

His male privilege is that he doesn't understand how a particular element of being a woman feels, therefore his understanding of it is limited. It generally has nothing to do with any other aspect of his life. Where it does, obviously there is room for debate.

Well none of the men who post here (myself included), have any problem advancing and sticking to an opinion, so I feel little fear of marginalizing a man with crippling self esteem issues. I doubt a feminist board on a parenting site will find many wandering, so it seems at least to me a safe place for class analysis.

Otherwise your posts have the vague hint of concern trolling. Counter intuitively perhaps but amongst young people more males than females identify as feminist these days, so winning men over doesn't seem to be a problem. If feminism has an image problem it's not actually with men but with other women.

I see what you're all saying.

I don't know. I think all I'm saying is to be wary of personalizing macro issues when communicating with individuals.

The statement 'men have the privilege of going for a solitary walk without the fear of being raped' is fine, as is 'men have the privilege of more oppprtunities for advancement in the computer industry'. But to assert that all men are more privileged than all women in a very non-specific sense does seem problematic.

It's arguably problematic in some conversations, but there will be others where structural privilege or lack of it is very relevant and it's perfectly reasonable to expect someone to listen to others who do not have the particular structural privilege before they jump in with their own opinions.

Want a good definition of privilege Josef?

I find most conversations end up here

Venusinscorpio I completely agree. Of course there are conservations where that privilege is very evident and relevant. If you're talking to an arrogant male company boss who is disparaging feminist campaigns to close the pay gap, it would be totally justified to bring his attention to the male chauvinist privilege he is displaying.

I also think male privilege can be demonstrated by very poor, disadvantaged men. And it can be totally justified to call that out.

But it can get a bit complicated to measure the respective privilege of two people when factors like class and race come into play.

Hilary Clinton does have more privilege overall than a man living under an underpass; but arguably she has less privilege than another male politician within her sphere.

Slug someone saying that women are dumb to fight rape and abuse is obviously not good at all.

I hope I'm not one of those 'dudes'.

Ots bollocks thay removing emotion makes a better argument..thats such a british/german male thing. ignoring emotion isnt an advanced skill ..its a restricted one like saying 'lets not talk about how consumers hate our company and hiw tgat affexts business..lets just sack some workers' area..its just ignoting a perpective because you are uncomfortable on its ground. .

but people who hate emotion are like people who hate music and peiple enjoying themself..they think no emotion is 'more right' in the same way dull people think imposing silence on neighbours is 'more right' than having them like music and friends.

The view I take is that you can't educate someone. They have to be open and looking for learning about it themselves. It's pointless trying to 'debate' with someone who actually just wants to express their own rigid view. They don't really want a debate with you, they want a win.

one of the main difficulties with 'privilege' is that the complexity is misunderstood and is mistakenly treated as though all men are privileged over all women when in favt working class men are very unprivileged conpared to old school white middleclass women

Yes, I am aware of that, Josef. Intersectionality is the concept of trying to examine where these different class issues overlap. It's a useful and necessary thing to do. Unfortunately in practice i find it usually ends up becoming a rather meaningless and superficial Oppression Olympics with the people who shout loudest on social media deciding who gets the title of "Most oppressed".

the weakness with the'walk without being raped' argument is that its very specific. men are far more likely tp be physically assaulted, maimed or killed walking alone than women. You could argue a privilege of being more successfully conditioned to accept prepare for or psychologically insulate against violence perhaps?

That's just one view of the privilege men have. Men are not constantly told by society that they have a responsibility to avoid being attacked in the street by other men, and that they must think about all their actions with that possibility in mind, when they leave the house.

"Unfortunately in practice i find it usually ends up becoming a rather meaningless and superficial Oppression Olympics with the people who shout loudest on social media deciding who gets the title of "Most oppressed".

I think you're probably quite right in that observation. There are lots of oppressed people about these days.