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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why do so many men turn bad...?

418 replies

Destinysdaughter · 27/01/2017 18:44

Was just thinking about this, May be simplistic but was wondering why so many men end up being rapists, paedophiles, DV abusers, stalkers etc?

Is it something in their family background, being a victim of abuse themselves, conditioning, or something else?

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 06/02/2017 23:55

What has this got to do with male violence, and why it happens?

MissHemsworth · 07/02/2017 06:47

Jms are you suggesting that women 'getting away' with sexually assaulting men is a privilege or that women being able to report sexual assault 'without ridicule' is a privilege?

Xenophile · 07/02/2017 07:26

So, what you're saying JMS is that men are telling your sons that they'll laugh at them if they report sexual violence?

In what way is that women's fault?

They of course should report. They'll be taken more seriously by the police than women.

Xenophile · 07/02/2017 07:28

Assassinated... it's whataboutery, deflecting attention from the actual perpetrators of violence onto their victims in order to pretend it isn't gendered in nature.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 07:40

If your saying having your bottom felt whilst stood 3 deep at a bar is sexual violence and should be reported then there would be millions of cases of 'sexual violence' by women against men every week!

And Miss yes I would call it priveledge. And like most priveledge the people that have it don't know they have it because they've never know any different.
The police have said they will not be taken seriously!
The whole machinery that exists to deal with sexual assault is geared towards women being the victims.
Both sides my sons have had hundreds of times more unwanted sexual contact than my daughters yet it's my sons that have to attend mandatory "how not make women feel uncomfortable or threatened" courses at uni or "How to behave appropriately towards women"
Patronising, insulting and in many cases just adding insult to injury!

AssassinatedBeauty · 07/02/2017 07:42

And what is this to do with male violence?

MissHemsworth · 07/02/2017 07:55

Women being able to report sexual assault & be taken seriously is a PRIVILEGE that women have fought for over the years. If it was such an issue for men then maybe they need to also fight to be taken seriously.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 08:01

The original question was ' Why do so many men turn out bad"
But the lens your looking through when you ask that question is of male perpetration and female victimhood. Not saying that isn't the majority of cases but my point is when it's the other way around its virtually invisible. It exists (objectively) in abundance but females probably don't even realise they're doing it and males probably don't either and even if they do they will never call it out. It's completely normalised.
I was at work in the kitchen a few weeks ago and a male colleague of mine was having his muscles felt by the HR Director (a woman) she felt his arms and put her hands on his chest above his nipples and squoze/squeezed! And said something like "Oooooooh they're really hard!"
Can you imagine if he'd done that to her!! Unthinkable! He'd be out the door!
But who does he complain to?! HR?!
He probably never even contemplated it. This kind of thing just happens. Women are just allowed to do it!

Datun · 07/02/2017 08:01

jms

the vast majority just simply don't acknowledge or take any notice (probably not even to themselves

And there you have it.

When two men are week are killed by women you may have a point.

When women start punching men in the face for no reason, you may have a point.

When men's arms and ribs are broken by women for no reason, you may have a point.

When women start annihilating their own children because the man wants to leave them, you may have a point.

Women get felt up in bars all the damn time. It's almost inevitable.

And yes, it's awful and unpleasant. You need to encourage your sons to call it out.

But women are far more concerned with getting the crap beaten out of them and raped.

It's never a level playing field.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 08:11

MissH
Maybe men DO need to fight for the right to be taken seriously but it will be a long time coming precisely because it's NOT an issue for them. It happens to them all the time, and they just let it happen because they have more important things to worry about. But also because, in my opinion, they don't see it as a threat in the vast majority of cases. Maybe we should start teaching young women how to behave around men and also start teaching men that it's not ok to be touched by a woman when you havnt given her permission. Even if you liked it!

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 08:17

Datun isn't one man a week also killed by a woman? Or am I misreading that stat?

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 08:20

And no when it comes to male v female violence it's not going to be a level playing field. Men are generally bigger and stronger than women (no doubt cos society conditions them to be - certainly nothing to do with testosterone)
If you got a hundred women to repeatedly attack a hundred men. Extreme DV microcosm - you would still end up with more female deaths and injuries precisely because of that fact despite that fact that women were the aggressors 100% of the time

Whathaveilost · 07/02/2017 08:22

I can only speak of some of my observations so it's only anecdotal musings I'm throwing into the ring

I work with teenagers I residential care. We often here how 'our kids' have got on 10-15 years after they left us, so they will be in their mid 20s - 30.

Some of them have done ok for themselves but the ones that have raped, ended up in prison, prostitution etc where the kids that came to us and were already very angry and unhappy . They were the ones who were from a broken family AND significant issues such as father being in prison for a violent crime, serious neglect, sexual abuse, exploitation and other harm from a parent etc. The single family wasn't an issue for many kids. We all know many families like this and the young people grow up to be hard working, great adults. It is the significant issue that seems to be the problem and lack of other support such as counciling or the refusal to engage with counselling.

As I said, I'm not claiming to be an expert, it's just my observations.

Datun · 07/02/2017 08:43

jms

No-one Should invade the personal space of another person.

And I do understand. When my son was given the talk at school he came home very indignant because it implied that all men were violent. It's probably the way the talk is framed.

But it's a framed like that for a reason. The statistics are inescapable. The level of violence committed by men on women is epidemic.

When people like your children go about their daily lives, they generally don't see it. But that doesn't mean it isn't there. And however unpalatable it is, getting indignant because 'not all men are like that' (NAMALT), and pointing out that you have had your bum felt in a bar, simply does not address the issue.

Violence and sexual violence is a gendered issue, precisely because it is not a level playing field.

So, although you personally see some unfairness going on, it really isn't what this thread is about.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 09:09

Whathaveilost...Your observations make perfect sense to me as I suspect they will you most. However there are so many factors at play in that scenario, where do you start?! Add to that the fact that correlation is not causation anyway! 20 pre conditions 2 outcomes - which, if any, if the preconditions is the cause?!

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 09:11

Epidemic?! Really?!

AssassinatedBeauty · 07/02/2017 09:22

I think that intervention in the early years (birth to 3 years perhaps) might be effective at challenging and addressing a whole host of issues, including the kind of toxic masculinity that's being discussed here. The problem with that though is finding the funding, the political will, and working out how to actually engage with the families that you'd need to in an effective way.

There's also an issue with a general societal acceptance of low level sexist attitudes. Personally, I'd like an assessment of how well these attitudes are challenged to form an explicit part of the inspection criteria for early years providers (child minders, nurseries and pre school's) and for schools.

Datun · 07/02/2017 09:40

jms

Yes really.

"Around one in two women in Britain have been physically or sexually assaulted, according to the world’s biggest ever report into abuse suffered by women."

"The report also shows that Britain ranks among the worst countries in Europe when it comes to women being violently abused – a shameful accolade.”

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-violence-epidemic-half-of-women-in-britain-admit-they-have-been-physically-or-sexually-assaulted-9169143.html%3Famp

This is no surprise to anyone but you jms.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 09:50

Datun.. What exactly counts as sexual assualt in this survey? If it's any unwanted sexual contact then 90% of men are also affected as already mentioned.
If it's actual violence then men are the vast majority of victims. Yes from other men. But a man dies every week at the hands of his partner despite him likely being bigger and stronger. And that doesn't take into account those men that kill themselves rather than putting up with the abuse!

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 09:55

You need to look beyond your agenda and your victimhood. Violence and sex are part of the human condition. Culture can channel controll and suppress it to an extent but never eradicate it. The first step in managing it is to be honest about it and not try to pin it on one group or another.

Xenophile · 07/02/2017 10:06

Uni consent courses aren't about making women feel better. As anyone who has attended or run one will tell you.

And no, a man doesn't die every week at the hands of their female partner.

So, back to the thread.

Why do you think men turn bad?

Is it toxic masculinity?

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 10:06

Emperors new clothes

AssassinatedBeauty · 07/02/2017 10:06

"Violence and sex are part of the human condition." Interesting that you mention those two things in the same sentence.

You are very focussed on trying to stop women from discussing the issue of male violence. It is absurd to suggest that violence and sexual violence are perpetrated equally by women and men. You are the one with the agenda, jms.

Xenophile · 07/02/2017 10:07

Oh, sorry, I see from your last post that you're not going to be able to discuss this sensibly. So, please ignore my last, I don't really care what your answer is now.

Jmslvlc990 · 07/02/2017 10:30

Despair!
I'm not trying to stop any discussion. Look at Xeno in her last post to me if you want to find unwillingness to discuss.
Nor am I saying women and men perpetrate violence equally! I've repeatedly said this is not the case!
I'll repeat
Most violence is committed by men
So obviously most women who suffer violence do so at the hands of men
But the vast majority of victims of violence are men.