Why do so many men turn bad...?

[Destinysdaughter]

Was just thinking about this, May be simplistic but was wondering why so many men end up being rapists, paedophiles, DV abusers, stalkers etc?

Is it something in their family background, being a victim of abuse themselves, conditioning, or something else?

They probably are in your case eminensux.

You may want to consider why that might be.

JosefK, tribal societies where women have power, matriarchies such as the one in China and in our own western world, places like Iceland and Scandinavia are far more egalitarian than most of Europe and guess what, women have higher status there.

I don't think it's a coincidence.

I think women would prefer money than an evening with eminismsux, JosefK.

So would men.

Scandanavian societies are more egalitarian because they are affluent social democracies with low levels of economic inequality. Obviously it is really good that gender inequality is low in them, but there is not a causal link between women in power and social harmony. There are lots of right wing women who are completely inegalitarian and opposed to social justice. Margaret Thatcher is an obvious example. There are also lots of wonderful women in politics like Caroline Lucas. Just people as I say.

I can't remember the name if the famous Chinese Empress but she was reportedly ruthless and had family members killed in various horrible ways.

individual women at the top of patriarchal structures, don't tell us much about the nature of women and men.

This thread is about why so many men in our society - here and now - are rapists, DV abusers, are so entitled.

You think it's because they have power.

I agree with you.

But I also think that the evidence that they are horrible, is quite strong. There's 6,000 years of it.

Men have had 6 millienia, to give up their power and re-apportion some of it to the other half of humanity.

Why do you think they haven't?

Just wanted to say how disappointing it is, to have missed eministski's post, it was deleted before I saw it.

I'm sure it added greatly to the debate. I'm worried I missed something really eye-opening.

Not really

I'm gutted I missed masculism's several posts earlier.

I'm sure they would have given us some valuable food for thought.

Oh wait...

"But I also think that the evidence that they are horrible, is quite strong. There's 6,000 years of it.:

Yes because they have had power. If you give people power then lots of them will abuse it. And if one class of people has power and believes they are superior to another class of people who have less power, then they have tendency to do awful things to them.

Men do not want to give up power because no one really wants to give up power. That isn't human nature.

That probaly sounds really cynical but that is my view of the world.

All we can do is try and cultivate spaces where empathy and mutuality is possible. Moments of love and compassion.

But there will always be power, and there will always be people doing awful things with power.

You didn't miss much AskBasil.

But Josef, where men don't have quite such disproportionate power to women, societies are less violent.

That's the right here and now evidence.

I want to believe that if women dismantle patriarchy (because it seems men have no intention of doing so) then men will just lose the entitlement and society will be less violent.

I want to believe that it's solely socialisation and solely power, that makes so many men disproportionately awful.

When I'm feeling optimistic, I agree with you.

But when I'm not, I think... 6000 years.

society doesn't give women the same message it gives men: that they're entitled to sex, to a woman's attention and time and energy, that they have the right to put their lives at the centre of existence and expect any woman they take up with, to be a satellite to their existence rather than a planet in her own right IYSWIM.

As a man I simply do not recognise that. I've never felt entitled to sex, attention or anything else like that. I've always thought that rapists and abusers are fundamentally different to the rest of us, that they aren't normal. Whether the cause of that is upbringing or some other socio-psychological factor or something else entirely I don't know but I do know I don't have it in me to do that.

One problem.is that 'men' often means brutalised thuglike men, working class men, and criminal men..conveniently so..but they are less than 5% of men.

One issue is that men are many times more likely to be assaulted, killed or maimed, and are also portrayed as being more likely to have to be physically and mentally 'hard' and so a lot of a man's imaginary world is practicing a 'get out of trouble ' voice. the more single and isolated a man, the more likely he'll have to do all the fighting if bad stuff happens..hemce the more preparedness. the more preparedness..the more seeing threats that aremt there. Also the more practiced aggression as a respinse to fear, the more aggression comes out if a fear narrative is communicated. If there are physical threats..men are usually expected to be on standby much more than women..security guards, bystanders, etc etc.. and theres also the cliche of women getting their boyfriends to fight other guys.. Men are also being very conditioned to be strong. .and theres even a culture of 'high-t' (testosterone) expected in workout culture and also in relation to sex (porno performance sex needs instant arousal. .and theres some arguments that suggests some women are expecting a 'instant hard, stay hard' performance. .which is encouraging 'high-T'

The fact is that men are rewarded, valued and sought after for values that are based on minimising vulnerability, being able to handle conflict, and to resist physical threats..so that is what a lot of men try to demonstrate.

I've even had seemingly very feminist friends still go very weak-kneed at physically big, 'bad boy', or wealthy domineering men when off guard, so its a very ingrained idea for men that 'hardness' is positive.

So.. men rape,abuse and torture women and children because they're afraid of us? Got'cha!

WTF scary
Nice conflation of working class men with criminals there
and theres also the cliche of women getting their boyfriends to fight other guys. This is not a cliché I have ever heard of or seen before, think it might exist in the tiny minds of you and your 4chan friends.
porno performance sex needs instant arousal. .and theres some arguments that suggests some women are expecting a 'instant hard, stay hard' performance. .which is encouraging 'high-T' Some arguments made by bitter men on 4chan no doubt. Honestly that is right up there in the biggest load of garbage I've ever read on here. FAKE NEWS!!

instant hard, stay hard

It's all on a par with what on earth do lesbians DO?

Hint: it's not about marathon sex sessions involving a mammoth phallus for hours on end.

And I'm not a lesbian.

huh?

The conflation of real man with working class male values and female values with middle class educated female values is postulated in feminist literature..cant remember who.. but around 1990.. for example the idea that women are homemakers, learn 'accomplishmemt' skills like dress making and baking etc conflicys wildly with working class women who have nearly always worked in one way or another. Wprking class urban areas DO have more crime and petty crime and crime supporting behaviours are more ooen in working class areas..eg buying stolen goods in pubs, illegal gambling and loan sharking..

all that t-stuff was from looking at male workout culture info which anyone can look up. i wrote something about it before as its weird that with slob culture there is a parallell bigness via workout culture that DOES sit with the working class, gangesque and 'threatened' culture of men as equally as with the body builder health freak. you can see it in many secondary areas of cities..bookies..cheap weight oriented gyms, fried chicken and fighting type dogs.. but again that is a small proportion of men.. but its the cliche a lot of people imagine when 'real' men are memtioned..isnt it? i doubt they mean bookish librarians or skinny it geeks?

parallell bigness via workout culture Are you donald trump?

sigh...instead of seeing the point, extending or expamding the issue..you compare me to curremt bogeyman...to.make what point exactly??

To make the point you are incoherent and using trumpesque phrases like "parallel bigness". Just for the lolz really

Ok I kind of get what you are trying to say, after a few rereads. This "Alpha" real man stuff is bollocks, you know. If someone said "real man" to me I would think the person saying it was a knob. It wouldn't bring to mind any particular type of man.

I agree men are now experiencing a lot more of the same kind of pressure felt by women to meet a particular image but I think that's more to do with consumer culture than any kind of realistic view of what women want. Same as most men don't actually want a permatanned waxed boob implanted partner.
Seriously, get off 4chan and talk to some actual women, you know, as people rather than a conquest. Stop obsessing about if you are a man enough. It's sad and it doesn't help your mental health.

If it's social conditioning you have to ask yourself two major questions.

1. Why is it social conditioning? were did it come from? It's no good just saying patriarchy or entitlement because you have to ask where did that come from?
2. If it is social conditioning and it's endemic why are only a tiny minority of men affected?

I have two daughters and two sons. My daughters have had the ocassionally cat call and whistle but both my sons are groped by women in bars (usually having their bottons felt) almost every weekend and they have learned the hard way to stay clear of hen parties especially if they're on their own. One of my sons has even woken up at a house party recently to find a drunken 40yr old woman trying to perform oral sex on him. He was effectively raped but when he considered reporting it he took advice and was told he'd be laughed out of the police station. He says a lot (not a few) of his friends have had similar experiences and non of it has EVER been reported for fear if ridicule. One of his friends had his name spread all over Facebook by a girl he rejected as she unzipped his fly. Because he knocked her back she posted on Facebook that he must be gay because he turned down a blow job from her. What she didn't mention was that he did just turn her down he had to physically stop her from doing it! In the modern parlance my sons have been 'sexually assualted' hundreds of times by women and even raped but boys just don't report this stuff. They're told by society and the entitled girls and women that do this that they should be grateful and to stop being so wet!

jms

That's awful for your sons. But despite them being sexually assaulted and even raped and your daughters being the target of only a few catcalls, sexual violence remains firmly in the male domain.

"Reported" sexual violence remains firmly in the male domain!
I'm not trying to imply women are as bad as men for unwanted sexual contact. But the truth is we don't know!
There will be under-reporting by women but boys and men virtually Never report anything like this and you can understand why. There's no point. Nothing will happen except for their own ridicule. Some no doubt like it or feel flattered by the vast majority just simply don't acknowledge or take any notice (probably not even to themselves) they just put up with and accept it. They don't care. It's just one example of the societal 'priveledges' women have. They're allowed to get away with it cos they're women and it's up till me n to look after themselves.