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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The effect of porn on teenage boys and young men

414 replies

DeviTheGaelet · 15/01/2017 18:12

Did anyone else hear the section on R5 about porn addiction the other day? They spoke to a doctor who is looking into the defects of porn on men. A study in Italy found 40% of young men were having erectile issued, of those 60% were psychologically caused ( I think those were the stats).
The doctor suggested that watching porn during adolescence is training men to be aroused by purely visual stimuli and the visual stimuli are not realistic. As a result they are not being wired to find the smells and touch of actual sex arousing. As a result they are having election issues.
He described porn as "stunt sex" and said it was creating a generation of men who's sexual relationships were with their hand and a screen rather than another person.
I found it really interesting. We talk a lot on here about the harm porn causes women and girls but I've not heard so much about the impact on boys.
I think this should be discussed in PSHE in schools. Maybe this will be the personal impact many men need to see how harmful porn can be.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 16/01/2017 11:56

What should be the real question is what role is porn to play in women's lives? Is porn inherently predicated on male desire and female disempowerment? Can there be porn for women? Can there be a sexual capitalism which serves female sexuality? There is no theoretical reason why not.

Yes there is. It is called feminism. Which has developed an analysis that porn is filmed prostitution, hate speech and misogynistic propaganda that exists as a reflection of and as a tool of male supremacist society. So let's look at what you call "the real question" from a female centric perspective.

What should be the real question is what role is misogynistic hate speech to play in women's lives? Is misogynistic propaganda inherently predicated on male desire and female disempowerment? Can there be misogynistic propaganda for women? Can there be a sexual capitalism of misogynistic hate speech which serves female sexuality?

qwerty232 · 16/01/2017 12:01

If all expressions of male sexuality held no shame I'm afraid to say we would be in a considerably worse place than we are now. I don't how to say this without sounding alarmist but the explosion in pornographic material in my mind is a result of the unshackling of male sexuality - a lid has been kept on it by ideas of virtue and shame for a long long time but now technology has allowed those "barriers" to be removed and this is the result. It makes me sound like a pearl clutching conservative but there you go.

I see what you mean. But sexuality is not a force upon which a lid is kept. That's a Freudian fallacy that Foucault skewed. Sexuality is a dynamic. Repression does not inhibit sexual expression: it constitutes it. That is why you get people getting off on being told they're a 'bad boy' - on doing something they're not supposed to do. Fantasy is defined by the forbidden.

It's not that sexual expression is any regarded as any less shameful now. People are as ridden with sexual angst as they ever were. Rather, it's that its field of expression has widened massively - mainly because in an age in which the old industries have gone, sex is big business.

Morality has collapsed - but that is different from a 'lid'. Rightfully, ethics encourage a mentality which is less "I really want to do this, but I will be ashamed if I do so" and more "I don't want to do this at all". Morality should socialise people not to want things that are morally harmful, in other words.

namechange102 · 16/01/2017 12:02

growapear guess we'd just have to pay for the 'romance'....but would male partners accept this of their girlfriend/wife in the same way we are supposed to accept our bf/dh watching porn?

qwerty232 · 16/01/2017 12:02

porn is filmed prostitution

Indeed, but would porn filmed by women for women still be filmed prostitution?

growapear · 16/01/2017 12:04

OK - here's a thought.

Which has developed an analysis that porn is filmed prostitution, hate speech and misogynistic propaganda

So this is a clear statement that men should be ashamed that they get enjoyment from watching porn. I mean - how could anyone not be ashamed that their body reacts in a pleasurable way to filmed abuse (as you claim it all to be) ? What can be realistically be done about that ? The shaming doesn't seem to be enough to keep the shackles on it at the moment.

growapear · 16/01/2017 12:05

Repression does not inhibit sexual expression: it constitutes it. That is why you get people getting off on being told they're a 'bad boy' - on doing something they're not supposed to do. Fantasy is defined by the forbidden.

Interesting, i suppose I never thought of it that way.

qwerty232 · 16/01/2017 12:06

The shaming doesn't seem to be enough to keep the shackles on it at the moment.

No, because to re-iterate, the shame is part of the thrill.

growapear · 16/01/2017 12:09

growapear guess we'd just have to pay for the 'romance'....but would male partners accept this of their girlfriend/wife in the same way we are supposed to accept our bf/dh watching porn?

I don't think you are supposed to accept it all, that's entirely up to you. Romance is to do with an expression of love - and so no I don't think they would accept it at all.

Beachcomber · 16/01/2017 12:11

Qwerty, I'm talking about pornography as it currently exists in the real world.

Your framing of several subjects on this board as "yeah but what if the world was completely different and women were doing lots of sexualized violence against other women too" is not only tedious but also misogynistic.

It's "women do it too in my imaginary world". It isn't feminism on any level and I am finding it increasingly offensive and disrespectful. You are using our lives, our oppression to indulge in anti-woman thought experiments. Nasty stuff.

Beachcomber · 16/01/2017 12:14

So this is a clear statement that men should be ashamed that they get enjoyment from watching porn. I mean - how could anyone not be ashamed that their body reacts in a pleasurable way to filmed abuse (as you claim it all to be) ? What can be realistically be done about that ? The shaming doesn't seem to be enough to keep the shackles on it at the moment.

No it doesn't. We need criminal sanctions for the making and distribution of pornography at the very least.

But to do that we need it recognised as hate speech.

qwerty232 · 16/01/2017 12:19

Yes but Beachcomber what is the goal? Is the goal to eliminate of or reduce access to porn period? Or is it to campaign against male produced porn encoded with patriarchal tropes?

Those are two completely different agendas that involve completely different courses of action.

And it isn't happening in my 'imaginary world'. There are women who claim to create women friendly, 'feminist' porn at the moment.

qwerty232 · 16/01/2017 12:22

"yeah but what if the world was completely different and women were doing lots of sexualized violence against other women too" is not only tedious but also misogynistic."

I didn't say that though.

HerOtherHalf · 16/01/2017 12:31

But to do that we need it recognised as hate speech.

Not disagreeing with your sentiment, but we don't actually need that. Before the Internet era, there were enforced laws on what was permissible for publication and distribution and no mention of porn being hate speach. Retailers, publishers, distributors and producers could be held legally accountable, including criminal charges being brought. Granted it didn't completely eradicate the problem but it at lease kept it to a backstreet or top-shelf trickle compared to the overwhelming flood we have currently. Having defined standards of what is considered offensive and holding accountable the various organisations that facilitate distribution (e.g. ISPs, Social Media, search engines, hosting services etc) is very possible, there just isn't enough pressure being brought to bear.

growapear · 16/01/2017 12:43

So Beach - you must think that the majority of men (all who watch porn) should be ashamed of themselves and their desire to watch it ?

HelenDenver · 16/01/2017 12:47

.

vesuvia · 16/01/2017 12:49

growapear wrote - "surely a good thing that any pornhounds are unable to maintain either an erection or a relationship no ?"

I suspect that men who use porn but have erectile problems are likely to search for ever more extreme and ever more harmful porn. I think that the increase in severity of porn that is produced to meet this demand is not a good thing.

Porn users don't need to be in a relationship with someone to have opportunities to do harm based on what they see in porn e.g. they can do harm during one night stands or rapes etc.

Beachcomber · 16/01/2017 14:06

HerOtherHalf, I think we do need it recognised as hate speech. Because otherwise feminists and people who want to stop the tidal wave of pornography are going to find themselves forever in a negotiation of where the line should be drawn that will be framed by pornhounds, MRAs, libertarians, neo-liberals and many others as moralistic.

We will (and are currently) be accused of moralistic pearl clutching, prudishness, failing to be sex positive, opposed to freedom, denying women in porn agency, etc, etc.

The problem feminist analysis has with porn is not that it is rude but that it is harmful and hateful.

So Beach - you must think that the majority of men (all who watch porn) should be ashamed of themselves and their desire to watch it ?

I don't really think about it in those terms. I think men need to take responsibility for their porn consumption and I think they should analyse it and think about what their choice to consume porn really is. It isn't just about being titillated whilst masturbating - it is actively contributing to harm to girls and women and an endorsement of sexualized violence and the dissemination of graphic images of that sexualized violence.

I think a lot of men do feel shame after consuming porn because they know very well that what they have seen is misogynistic and harmful.

Someone said upthread that "nobody can stop porn". That's a ridiculous statement. Pornography is overwhelmingly produced, distributed, sold and consumed by men. Men can stop it.

But in order to stop it they need to recognize that female humanity, dignity, safety and personhood are worth more than men's orgasms and that making money from filming and disseminating films of sexualized abuse and violence is criminal. Which is why, IMO, we need recognition that pornography is hate speech. And that has to happen on a legal level and IMO at a human rights level.

Can you imagine what the reaction would be if people were making, diffusing and watching films of white people abusing people of colour with racist slurs and violence on a grand scale? Decent people would be outraged and it would be recognized as hate speech and declared illegal.

BertrandRussell · 16/01/2017 14:09

I've said before that there are a number of things that men could do now - 2.05 on January 16th 2017- that would make a massive leap forward forward for equality. One is to stop using porn. The other is to always call other men out on sexist language and behavior.

It's amazing how ruffled and hot and bothered and worried men get when you suggest these things. They start using long words, and quoting from books and thinking up lots of reasons why it's impossible........

Xenophile · 16/01/2017 14:23

Yes, but Bertrand, that's because these are nice guys and why should nice guys take responsibility for their actions when there are really bad guys out there?

Hmm
SpartacusWoman · 16/01/2017 14:24

This might be long and I apologise.

I used to read these forums a few years ago and think the feminists were overreacting. I used to think porn was harmless and something most men do, and some women. That the actors were paid good money and that it's probably empowered the women.

I took a look at a few sites to see if the mainstream stuff is as bad as the feminists here say it is, and I was horrified. Women being spat on, women being slapped, women having their genitals slapped, women being made to gag during oral, women having cocks roughly shoved up their anus. All this is on the front page and what constitutes as normal and mainstream.

Yes there's some "ethical" porn, but that's usually behind a price tag and has to be saught out. Our ten year old sons are not accessing that stuff, they are accessing the violent and misoginistic stuff.

I first had to discuss porn with dd when she was about 7 years old, one of the kids in her class had seen a very violent porn clip and dd had heard him telling his mates about it. The boys parents laughed it off, boys will be boys, he's a hot blooded male with Dad even saying "that's my boy".

I reported it to the school, I felt bad doing it as the Mum was one of my close friends at the time but if she was sticking her head in the sand and even saying there's nothing wrong with it as all boys and men will watch it. Mum tried to tackle it a little a few years later, not because they were worried about their son but because their son had stolen their credit card and used it on web cam sites when he was about 9. Again, it wasn't her son to blame, the Internet company should have known that it was a child's device and blocked it, the bank shouldn't have let card be used on sites like that as they should know it was unusual transaction, every excuse under the sun to prevent her son taking any responsibilty. No gadgets were removed, Internet was left unsupervised etc.

There been instances of the boy trying to yank girls trousers down from 8 year old onwards, he tried it with my dd during an after school club, he'd also hit her if she was winning him, and I played merry hell, school had serious talks with him, but his parents didn't back it up at home and were cross that their DS was being bullied by the school for totally normal behaviour.

I told Mum it was me who reported it, she was angry I didn't speak to her first but I know she'd have told dd she was being silly, that it's normal and i told her it's not normal for 8 year old girls to have to worry about their trousers and underwear yanked down at school.

The boy is 12 now and really struggles to maintain friendships, girls avoid him, which his Mum is annoyed about, as his peers have "girlfriends" but her son doesn't have one because girls are bitches and only pick good looking boys.

Dd started secondary school and dd hates using the school bus because everyday there's boys watching porn at the back and if she has to sit near the back she has to hear it, she's a confident and opinionated young girl but she says she feels intimidated and not confident enough to stand up to 9 or 10 boys aging from 11 to 16. The language the Y7s use about girls is also disgusting.

Dd will not pick anything up if she drops it on the floor because some of the boys will run up and simulate doggy sex, or make comments about the girl wanting one up the arse. School do take it seriously and some y7s have been expelled, they have a full morning or full afternoon where they have pastoral time and it's being spoken about then, but its angered a lot of parents of the boys that the girls complaints of having hips grabbed from behind and grinded on is being taken seriously. Girls just need to learn to take a joke. A boys education could be ruined because of girls reporting trivial things.

I can't my head around it and it makes me angry. I'm really thankful to Mumsnet and the feminists who have been discussing this because it's helped me talk to dd about this stuff before it happens. I think boys need to spoken to about it before they get to the age of being shown it/ watching it too. By parents as well as schools. Its really not enough to just hope they won't look at it.

I'm going to sound like a cunt now, but while I feel bad that these boys may grow up to have erectile function problems, or trouble having an actual relationship with females. I'm going to put all my resources into helping dd be confident in saying no to whatever she feels like re sex, and that when someone says "most men do it" or "what's wrong with you it's normal" to try and get her to do something she's not comfortable with to run for the hills. If boys and men think erectile dis function is caused by porn then boys and men need to start suggesting actions that will work, start campaigning for funds etc. It's not women's job to do it on their behalf, especially when they are told most men do it.

I guess a big part women can play in changing attitudes is speaking to their sons about porn, but from my experience many won't because they have dps or dhs who use porn themselves or because they think all men watch it etc.

Also the nudes in the workplace, my dh works in construction, and despite being an all male environment there's never been anyone even wanting naked calendars or posters or whatever. Dh def would speak up, he's done it in the pub when conversations have gone dodgy. He's seen porn when he was younger but doesn't watch it, he's as horrified by the whole thing as much as I am and also speaks to dd about this stuff.

HelenDenver · 16/01/2017 14:24

"Porn users don't need to be in a relationship with someone to have opportunities to do harm based on what they see in porn e.g. they can do harm during one night stands or rapes etc."

Adding to Venus's reply to pear: the "pornhounds" (lovely) contribute to the harm of the women in the films. If there is more demand for more harmful porn, more of it will be made and more women harmed in its making.

Beachcomber · 16/01/2017 14:25

Very true BertrandRussell. It's not that they don't want to it's just that it's impossible for men to change their behaviour unfortunately. There is the will, there just is no way. Hmm

Link to wiki article about hate speech. It is a perfect description of the phenomenon of pornography. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

Hate speech is speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation.[1][2] In the law of some countries, hate speech is described as speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it incites violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected group, or individual on the basis of their membership to the group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected group, or individual on the basis of their membership to the group. The law may identify a protected group by certain characteristics.[3][4][5] In the law of other countries, hate speech is not a legal term.[6] In some countries, a victim of hate speech may seek redress under civil law, criminal law, or both. A website that uses hate speech is called a hate site.

HelenDenver · 16/01/2017 14:25

Excellent post, Spartacus.

PhilODox · 16/01/2017 14:28

Growapear- should people not feel ashamed when they view images of people being abused and exploited? Personally I feel sickened, and I like/enjoy sex as much as anyone else. Filmed prostitution is a good term for it, and we know that the majority of women working in prostitution in UK are trafficked.

Beachcomber · 16/01/2017 14:34

And actually loads of porn is deeply racist but it's being done to women and its sexxay so nobody gives a shit. The women of colour in porn are not considered to people.