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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender Documentary on BBC2 Thursday 2100 "Transgender Kids: Who Knows best?"

860 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/01/2017 08:09

Looks like an interesting watch, that does not just accept the trans children or they will kill themselves rhetoric. I just hope the BBC actually do show it and aren't bullied into not showing it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088kxbw

The blurb:

Around the world there has been a huge increase in the number of children being referred to gender clinics - boys saying they want to be girls and vice versa. Increasingly, parents are encouraged to adopt a 'gender affirmative' approach - fully supporting their children's change of identity. But is this approach right?

In this challenging documentary, BBC Two's award-winning This World strand travels to Canada, where one of the world's leading experts in childhood gender dysphoria (the condition where children are unhappy with their biological sex) lost his job for challenging the new orthodoxy that children know best. Speaking on TV for the first time since his clinic was closed, Dr Kenneth Zucker believes he is a victim of the politicisation of transgender issues. The film presents evidence that most children with gender dysphoria eventually overcome the feelings without transitioning and questions the science behind the idea that a boy could somehow be born with a 'female brain' or vice versa. It also features 'Lou' - who was born female and had a double mastectomy as part of transitioning to a man. She now says it is a decision that 'haunts' her and feels that her gender dysphoria should have been treated as a mental health issue.

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Gallavich · 24/01/2017 16:21

Presumably the important sex differences in brain tissue

What are those differences?

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 24/01/2017 16:27

Hugh, did you join Mumsnet especially to participate in this thread?

DeviTheGaelet · 24/01/2017 16:35

I'm pretty sure hugh has posted before. I recognise the style and POV. Could be wrong though

CantReach · 24/01/2017 16:40

There was a meta analysis of sex difference in brains that found that the studies that suggested differences have not been able to be replicated.

Here is a recent study on the emotion centre of the brain:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170117135943.htm

CantReach · 24/01/2017 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CantReach · 24/01/2017 17:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

venusinscorpio · 24/01/2017 17:12
Grin
DeviTheGaelet · 24/01/2017 17:12

Grin might start using that to derailers lol

AssassinatedBeauty · 24/01/2017 17:15

I did wonder the relevance of pesto!

Poppyred85 · 24/01/2017 17:16

Hugh
Primidos was withdrawn in 1978, so again has not been used for many years. A review of the collated data from studies following its use was reviewed for government committees in 2014 and 2015 and found that while some studies showed an increase in teratogenicity, others showed no increase in birth defects as would be expected if there was consistent causation. In addition to this, hormonal components of it were much higher than those used in contraceptives so you're using the data from one drug and extrapolating it to people exposed to others simply because they share active agents. There are many drugs we use that can be beneficial in the correct dose but cause problems or toxicity when used at much higher doses. Given that, again, this is historical data it does not explain the surge of GD in young people in the UK in recent years.
Fundamentally though, you have used the data on the effects of one thing, in this case external genitalia and used it to argue that it therefore must have affected another organ system (the brain). Aside from the evidence for this being questionable, there is simply no evidence for this, you might as well argue that because female hormones have had an in utero effect on external genitalia then it must have affected the kidneys or heart too and that is Not supported by evidence and is simply poor science.

BBCNewsRave · 24/01/2017 18:20

Hugh has chosen such an apt username. Conjures up image of a posh bloke in a colourful sweater with a glass of wine in his hand, holding forth, whilst everyone else tries to edge away politely...

CharlieSierra · 24/01/2017 18:38

I noticed the username too. For me it speaks volumes and I think its goady fuckery. I'm deploying the VHP button.

CocoaX · 24/01/2017 18:40

Yes, Hughspeaks so we all need to listen... How many pages now trying to argue that my brain is pink inside?
Or maybe it is blue? Or kinda neutral like you get for a baby when you don't know the sex - before you can put the baby into blue or pink?

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 24/01/2017 18:58

I've recently developed a pronounced case of intermittent TLDR-itis. It is only happening on this thread at the mo.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 24/01/2017 18:59

My brain is lilac with black glittery sprinkles.

TalkingintheDark · 24/01/2017 20:13

I've been really hoping he will change his name to Hughshutsup.

Is that mean of me?

venusinscorpio · 24/01/2017 20:25

Hugh cares?

FloraFox · 24/01/2017 21:32

In the absence of androgens, the labia don't fuse and you end up with a vagina and clitoris instead.

More bullshit. The development of sexual organs is determined by chromosomes which are present in the egg and sperm before conception. The chromosomes of the sperm will determine the sex and the genitals.

Abnormal hormone levels may cause developmental deformities in the genitals but they won't make an XX foetus develop a male reproductive system or an XY foetus to develop a female reproductive system.

This is so basic I can't take any of your other posts seriously.

Hughspeaks · 24/01/2017 21:32

Poppyred85 The point I was trying to make with Primodos, is that it's yet another example of where exposure to synthetic hormones caused serious foetal harm. Yes, as with DES and thalidomide, the government went in completely on the side of the pharmaceutical industry, no one was ever prosecuted, the official line was that there was no proof that it caused deformities, and the whole thing was quickly swept under the carpet. There were no studies, as soon as talk of a possible link to deformities started appearing in the news, Bayer pulled it off the market and either destroyed the remaining stocks or shipped them off to third world countries. Nonetheless, I went to their AGM a couple of years ago, and they are real people, not just statistics, parents who've spent their entire lives having to look after severely disabled children with no help or even an acknowledgement of their plight from the government.

Another group I've come across whose lives have been ruined by prenatal exposure to synthetic hormones are Hhorages France. There, the main gripe they have is that many of their hormone exposed kids have ended up committing suicide or developing serious mental illnesses. Unfortunately their website is in French and my foreign language skills are pretty much nonexistent, but I found a paper they published in 2012 which is in English:
www.intechopen.com/books/state-of-the-art-of-therapeutic-endocrinology/behavioral-and-somatic-disorders-in-children-exposed-in-utero-to-synthetic-hormones-a-testimony-case

"As of today (April 2012), we are receiving an ever-increasing number of testimonies, the total number of testimonies collected by HHORAGES is 1,223, which represents 2,674 children from them 409 unexposed, 1,676 children exposed to synthetic hormones after medical prescriptions and 589 (post-DES) born after a previous exposure from which 20 presented psychiatric and/or somatic disorders. Amongst this total amount of 1,676 exposed children, 1,549 children are affected: 916 present psychiatric disorders, 418 somatic plus psychiatric disorders, 183 somatic disorders, 126 exposed are non affected. In addition, we numbered 48 suicides and 128 series of suicide attempts. "

Among boys, the somatic disorders they refer to are broken down into: Hypospadias, Cryptorchidism, Micropenis, Sterility, Azoospermia, Abnormal sperm, and cancer. Among girls, they are: Uterine malformations, Sterility, Miscarriages, Ectopic pregnancies, Ovarian cysts, Endometriosis, and cancer. Basically all the same physical problems the members of our Facebook group have had to deal with.

One other thing that paper touches on, is the fact that there are third generation effects associated with synthetic hormone exposure. Many of the effects seem to be able to propagate through more than one generation, so even though you yourself may have been relatively unaffected by a prenatal exposure to synthetic hormones, your children could be affected. Perhaps this at least partly accounts for why gender clinics in the UK are being overwhelmed by new referrals.

Another particularly troubling third generation effect is the link to autism in the grandchildren. I haven't actually asked the group as a whole how many have children with autism, but I know from what they've said when talking about their families that several at least do. My facebook friend Jill Escher has set up a charity to try to highlight this particular issue. There was no history of autism in her family, she did everything right during her pregnancies with her two children (which appeared to go normally and didn't require any special medical intervention). Nonetheless, she now has two children with severe, nonverbal autism. Then by chance she happened to obtain copies of the medical records from when her mother was pregnant with her, and discovered that her mother had been given a cocktail of high dose progestins and corticosteroids for most of the pregnancy.

This link is to an interview on Jill's website with Dr June Reinisch, a world renowned psychologist who has spent much of her career studying the effects of prenatal exposure to pharmaceutical hormones on peoples later psychology and behaviour. However I recommend having a look through the whole thing, particularly if you were thinking of taking Makena or some similar progestin-based treatment during your pregnancy.

www.germlineexposures.org/reinisch-qa.html

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/01/2017 21:36

Hugh I'm really confused. What has birth defects of genitalia got to do with transgender people?

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illegitimateMortificadospawn · 24/01/2017 21:41

Derail?

Hughspeaks · 24/01/2017 21:54

FloraFox "The development of sexual organs is determined by chromosomes which are present in the egg and sperm before conception. The chromosomes of the sperm will determine the sex and the genitals. Abnormal hormone levels may cause developmental deformities in the genitals but they won't make an XX foetus develop a male reproductive system or an XY foetus to develop a female reproductive system."

Really? What sex is this person then?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/01/2017 21:58

I can't watch the video with safe mode on, hence I will not be watching it.

What chromosomes do they have?

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Gallavich · 24/01/2017 21:59

That is an intersex person (I assume, haven't watched it)
Intersex doesn't prove transgender, nor does it prove that sex isn't binary, or that male and female aren't real.

Xenophile · 24/01/2017 22:01

Just to reiterate, there's no such thing as a sexed brain. The male/female brains myth has been debunked so many times, I can't even begin to express my surprise that it still gets mentioned.

I am guessing that the poster who should not be named is now going to conflate intersex conditions with body dysmorphias in a way that will make me want to bite my bloody desk.