Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

Devi

That's an interesting article to discuss, maybe it would suitable for its own thread ? This one is getting hard to follow :)

To pick up on a point I think Lass made earlier on. If radical feminism is seriously about effecting a social and political revolution - how can you expect only half the population to be involved in determining what our society ought to look like ?

But no one has handed the reins over to radical feminists and said, "there, completely sort society out", have they? It's not unreasonable for feminism to focus on making things better for women as a class, challenging structural inequality which disadvantages women specifically, and lobbying political figures about women's issues etc. And sometimes those changes and gains will involve a loss of privilege for men. I for one don't want to be fobbed off with a "feminism" that has been watered down to suit men's interests. And I feel that is what is happening in many mainstream feminist spaces.

I agree venus. It would be absolutely great to include men, if they could actually be feminists. But I have never met a single man who can. They may start out with the right intentions but their socialisation is so ingrained they inevitably start taking over, interrupting, defining terms, accusing women of being victims etc, everything done by some of the men on this thread. Any situation that involves men always eventually gets skewed in their favour.

White people shouldn't expect a comfy privileged place in black activism and men shouldn't expect a comfy privileged place in feminism. They can support feminism, but listening to what women need and helping to make that happen. IME most men don't actually want to do that.

Great posts, bearfish and Luis.

BTW I totally understand where women are coming from when they say 'shouldn't we be nice to men'? 'Shouldn't be listen to what men say'? Women are very very strongly socialised to be concerned about men's feelings, very strongly socialised to avoid annoying and angering men. Men on the other hand aren't that bothered about annoying and angering women. So when the aggression starts, it's the women who back down. Excluding men allows women to operate in a space where they can actually say what they feel and want and think without the normal 'we must listen to men' fuckwittery. Women listen to men plenty thanks.

YY Sparrowhawk, exactly. The difference is that white people don't generally presume to tell black activists that they too are black activists and part of the movement and therefore their views about campaigning for racial equality should be considered on the same level as black people's. I wonder why?

They can support feminism

But - what radical feminism actually wants is to dismantle political and social institutions ? Men will actually have to do this, but should just sit back and shut up while you tell them how that society ought to look, oh and now make it that way tyvm.

If women get worked up and aggressive, men wave it away as hysteria, being 'over-emotional' etc, whereas men getting aggressive is a scary thing for women, generally. We are only too aware of what happens when men are angry.

The black lives thing is a red herring, black people as noted earlier want equality with whites, they do not as far as I am aware want a revolution to achieve this.

That was to your previous post, Sparrow. The last one is sadly so true. It's strange that all these supposedly sensitive, "thoughtful" men who are fully aware of their male privilege and want to be labelled feminist can't see that, and continue to talk over women.

It's not a red herring. You just wouldn't, would you? Why not?

I think most radical feminists just want to advocate for the needs of women and centre women. They examine the structural problems faced by women as a class. They're not plotting to overturn the current patriarchal society in a coup d'etat.

Julie Bindel wasn't actually serious when she said she wanted men put in camps.

Are you saying that feminists want a revolution?

Well, she may have been serious in wanting it, but she's not actively working to bring it about

You're having fun with this straw man, aren't you, girlwith? As I said, no one is offering radical feminists the chance to remake the world.

Nope not a red herring

Not all women want a revolution, not all feminists want a revolution...but a percentage do

I will bet you any money you like that similar holds for religion and race

Should be "some" feminists

I think it's very interesting, this idea that women must coopt mens support to live as fully functioning adults. And men might let us, if we're nice enough and take their concerns about who's getting stuck with the shitwork that nobody wants to acknowledge but which makes society work.

I am in a radical feminist. But I don't seriously expect there to be a complete demolition and rebuilding of our society. I am a radical feminist in a "I wouldn't start from here" kind of way, and in a "we really need to think about the structures we have built and see if we can tweak them to make things fairies kind of way". It helps to think that way when you are trying to understand how we got to where we are. My ideal world would be secular and run along socialist lines too- but I don't expect that to happen any time soon either!

'I think it's very interesting, this idea that women must coopt mens support to live as fully functioning adults. And men might let us, if we're nice enough and take their concerns about who's getting stuck with the shitwork that nobody wants to acknowledge but which makes society work.'

Well said MrsDusty.

Make things fairer, not fairies.
Although fairies would be nice too.

black people as noted earlier want equality with whites, they do not as far as I am aware want a revolution to achieve this.

What are your thoughts on what Mugabe did in Zimbabwe girl? I would call that a revolution to achieve equality with the white people in their society.

I think radical feminists argue that it is impossible to reach full equality without restructuring existing social/political institutions. I personally don't interpret that as necessarily overturning them or having a revolution.

It should also be pointed out that what men really object to is not feminism per se but the fact that they are excluded from it. Most men couldn't give a shit about feminism, or barely even understand it, but they really really don't like the idea of women going ahead and talking, making decisions and doing things without the input of men. Perhaps because they expect women to treat men as badly as men treat women?

Oh x post bert I'm with you x