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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you think men can be feminists?

999 replies

AVirginLitTheCandle · 01/01/2017 23:39

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

OP posts:
pleasehlpemethanks · 06/01/2017 00:45

not one of you has engaged in what i've said

pleasehlpemethanks · 06/01/2017 00:45

pathetic

BertrandRussell · 06/01/2017 00:46

please- you do know about the Advanced Search function, don't you?

pleasehlpemethanks · 06/01/2017 00:46

call yourself feminists. you haven't got a clue

pleasehlpemethanks · 06/01/2017 00:47

listen bertrand i'm not lying to you. what i wrote on that other post is also true

venusinscorpio · 06/01/2017 00:47

I didn't even need it, I was lurking on the very thread when please popped up with his manly wisdom.

pleasehlpemethanks · 06/01/2017 00:47

i dont know how i got sucked into this vortex but here i am

pleasehlpemethanks · 06/01/2017 00:48

ready and waiting for something intelligent to read

StripeyMonkey1 · 06/01/2017 00:57

I think men can be feminists.

They can't be women, obviously, but they can be feminists as they can support equal rights. Isn't that what feminism is?

As to the argument that they could never really understand what women experience, yes that is true to an extent but is also a bit of a red herring. For me the turning point in terms of considering myself to be a feminist was having children and the social expectations of me as a mother. I actually think that most young women now have a pretty good deal and can understand why they might not be bothered about feminism. Does than mean that women who do not have children can not be real feminists? Surely not.

LuisCarol · 06/01/2017 01:01

"I am a man and a feminist."

I am also a man, and I wish men would stop saying things like this in places like this thread and show a little more thought.

"In my job I teach feminism as part of a broader course on ethics and law."

You are a man who has been given a job teaching feminism as part of a broader course on ethics and law. I ... just... [incoming radical feminist]

"One of the fundamental ideas we discuss is that feminism is needed because men fail to empathise with the experiences of women."

o...k...

"It strikes me that anyone who argues that men cannot be feminists is guilty of the very same thing: A lack of empathy. How can you know with such certainty what another gender thinks?"

No no no no no. A gender does not think. An argument that men cannot be feminist is that men cannot fight against male privilege, but they can use their privilege to help level the playing field, which is not the same thing. Evidence against men being capable of being feminists is... this thread, so far, frankly.

"For this reason, I think it's incredibly important for everyone to be open to idea of male feminists."

It's not incredibly important for everyone to be open to the idea of male feminists. Male feminists, should they exist, should be a tiny insignificant part of feminism. The one and only place they should be heard is in male only conversations.

"Otherwise thoughtful men, who you really want on your side, will just switch off. They'll deem you emotionally unintelligent, just like the idiot men who you rail against."

No, they won't. Thoughtful men, who feminists may or may not want on their side, will not give a monkeys what anyone calls them, they'll just be trying to use their advantage to level the playing field.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 06/01/2017 01:02

not one of you has engaged in what i've said

Oh ha ha.

I've stood up for at least one of the male posters on this thread, but in your case , like AF, I've just read your posting history and I have no wish to engage with you.

I sincerely hope you are lying about teaching ethics and law.

StripeyMonkey1 · 06/01/2017 01:05

This thread is educating me on why some women don't want to describe themselves as feminists. Why exclude men? Of course they are more likely to get it wrong, but provided they acknowledge that (a key requirement) I don't see the problem.

LuisCarol · 06/01/2017 01:06

I'm sorry. I'll be quiet.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 06/01/2017 01:10

Luis it had not registered with me that you were a man. I don't see any need for you to shut up.

bearfishdoodle · 06/01/2017 06:58

Luis your post shows up the other male posters on this thread for what they are, and gives me a little bit of hope that some men do understand, thank you.

Those frothing because they can't join in as anything more than allies, can you see how ridiculous that is? 'Your sex has been oppressed by mine for millennia but WHY can't we define how you go about protesting and dismantling the privilege we have?' Why isn't it enough for you to stand alongside us? Is it because you've been socialised to always be in charge?

I've seen a few digs at women having 'victim complexes' in the course of this thread. Lived experience does not equal a victim complex.

PoochSmooch · 06/01/2017 07:29

Agree with bearfish. Don't shut up, Luis! I liked your post a lot.

another - yes, TERF is an insult. A gendered insult used to shut women up in order to centre the feelings and needs of males. It isn't women who are inflicting violence on transwomen, it's men, but it's women who are the focus of transactivist rhetoric. The answer to why lies in sexism and misogyny. But that isn't what this thread is about.

Feminism doesn't stand a chance until it starts and ends with empathy.

Empathy...to you? Grin

"I spend endless hours marking essays on feminist jurisprudence...and enjoying getting cookies from feminists because I'm so fabulously feminist and wonderful. Hey! Why are you ignoring me?? HEY! I'm TALKING TO YOU!".

Hmm
BertrandRussell · 06/01/2017 07:59

"This thread is educating me on why some women don't want to describe themselves as feminists"

I do find this such an odd thing to say. I can't think of a single other movement where you would say "I disagree with something somebody within the movement said, so I'm leaving" It's like saying "I don't went to describe myself as an atheist because Richard Dawkins is such a misogynist dick".

CharlieSierra · 06/01/2017 07:59

Evidence against men being capable of being feminists is... this thread, so far, frankly

Precisely. And every other thread on this board where men just cannot help getting involved.

Hey! Why are you ignoring me?? HEY! I'm TALKING TO YOU always, always this. Every. Single. Time.

BertrandRussell · 06/01/2017 08:04

With honorable exceptions it always boils down to "Women jut need to be a bit nicer"

CocoaX · 06/01/2017 08:24

Gender is a social construct. A gender does not think, just to expand on what Luis already stated. A person does, be they born male or female. Gender is the set of ideas, norms, roles, rules etc which shape societal expectations of a person's behaviour - which that person can challenge or negotiate or resist or conform to.

A person born male by definition has experienced a whole different set of socially constructed ideas of how they should be. Their perspective is different. I think that is the point. Somebody equated it to being a black activist or supportive of civil rights. I am white, therefore I am historically privileged because of that. I do not live with the fear of discrimination and violence simply on account of my racial position. It would be wrong for me to suggest I knew how it feels for a black mother to fear her son will be apprehended by police or attacked in the street because he is black; just as the men on this thread, if they are white, have no idea how it feels to be that man. It does not stop me advocating for racial equality at work, trying to bring meaning to (empty) rhetoric about diversity, or supporting inclusivity and recognising barriers people who are not white face.

The same could be said for disability activism. Etc.

CharlieSierra · 06/01/2017 08:28

It's depressing to me. Always the same with the 'well this is why I won't call myself a feminist' just because women are clear in their beliefs and able to articulate them.

DeviTheGaelet · 06/01/2017 08:37

Good point about the atheism bert.
"I believe in atheism but I don't call myself atheist because atheists are mean!" Said no person ever

BeyondTheStarryNight · 06/01/2017 08:55

And they really should, based on Dawkins!! Grin

Datun · 06/01/2017 09:01

Delurking (and I'm sure I'm one of many lurkers on this thread).

The question was interesting. And, as I've seen before, a pattern develops. The many women on here are old hats at this and see it before it starts, long before I do. A man (or men) engages, starts to pontificate (fair enough), questions things (fair enough), but as soon as disagreement arises - which is par for the course across the whole of mumsnet, not just the FWR boards - gets annoyed. And this is where the pattern starts to follow the predicted course. Once you've seen male entitlement in action, it's so obvious - it seeps through without them even realising.

Women not listening.
Women not agreeing.
Women not caring what they say.
Women must say it nicer, in the way I want them to.
Women are pathetic! Victims!
I AM a feminist and you're all wrong!

I don't know if I'm a feminist but I AM a woman. There's nothing like us. And until I see evidence to the contrary, I, for one, am happy to keep that exclusive.

venusinscorpio · 06/01/2017 09:07

Stripey

I don't necessarily think that most young women have a pretty good deal. So I'm not sure why from that you've extrapolated that anyone should think you can't be a feminist if you haven't had children. Bizarre.

There is a big difference between childless women, and men. Don't you think?

Men are not being excluded. It's just not about them.

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