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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you think men can be feminists?

999 replies

AVirginLitTheCandle · 01/01/2017 23:39

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

OP posts:
HilbertRiddle · 04/01/2017 14:48

Where have I told you about feminism? I was asked by one member why I am a feminist and what I think it means, and I answered. The rest I have done is argue whether men can or cannot be feminists. Where exactly have I told you how to be a feminist?

And look at you, suddenly, now that you know I am a man, it's "the evil man that has come on here to talk about feminism".

I am actually listening to you, I am not agreeing with you, but that is different.

And now as you have before with your childish smiley-only replies, and as you have done with other posters, you say you will just ignore me. I find it very hard to believe you are a supposed grown-up woman with a business , your behavior is incredibly petulant and childish, and you lack severely in comprehension skills (like thinking not agreeing with you means not listening to you, that was just another one of your, oh so many, gems). So yes, I can see why you are tired, you are not used to someone having the patience to dismantle your fallacious arguments.

Dadbot3000 · 04/01/2017 16:43

Clearly what's needed here is the view of a white middle class liberal male, so strap in...

Before reading this thread (most of), I did like to think of myself as an aspiring feminist (struggle to give up porn), but take the point that most appropriate label would be aspiring ally.

However, for the layperson I don't think they will be aware of nuance, so if men want to think themselves feminists, I think that's probably good?!

Presumably the more people who identify as feminist the better? To effect meaningful change we want as many feminists & allies as possible. I will certainly be teaching my boys to be "feminists".

"Men" as a group are clearly the problem, but as individuals, men surely will be part of the solution?

P.s. It's a little depressing to hear that "no men really want equality as it will be a detriment to them". Some people actually want to pay more tax in order to support those less well off. Self service doesn't drive everyone. Also not sure that premise is true - most households involve a woman and a man, so anything lost by the man would be gained by the woman?

P.p.s Genuinely coming from a good place, so please be constructive with criticism! Also, was joking in 1st paragraph, just in case...

CocoaX · 04/01/2017 17:16

I think you are into a loser Dadbot with struggling to give up porn and aspiring feminist ally; but then I also think lay people can grasp the difference between aspiring ally and feminist. We are all lay people I think, or maybe there is an expert MN feminist on here?

It's not just money, it's time, status, reputation and privilege and I don't think it should be a zero sum game. If both partner (and not everyone has a partner or is heterosexual) pitch in and do their share then work and leisure should fall equally, no-one loses.

CocoaX · 04/01/2017 17:16

Onto a loser, I mean...

derxa · 04/01/2017 17:25

Dadbot I'm just watching you stagger innocently into the lion's den...

TheSparrowhawk · 04/01/2017 17:29

I heartily commend you for your bravery Dadbot!

'Presumably the more people who identify as feminist the better? To effect meaningful change we want as many feminists & allies as possible. I will certainly be teaching my boys to be "feminists".'

In theory, yes. But in my rather extensive experience many men who identify as feminists don't want nearly the same amount of change as radical feminists do and their contribution can often be detrimental rather than helpful.

"Men" as a group are clearly the problem, but as individuals, men surely will be part of the solution?'

Yes, but only if men can recognise their own privilege, which is rare IME.

'P.s. It's a little depressing to hear that "no men really want equality as it will be a detriment to them". Some people actually want to pay more tax in order to support those less well off. Self service doesn't drive everyone. Also not sure that premise is true - most households involve a woman and a man, so anything lost by the man would be gained by the woman?'

Some people want to pay more tax, but most people don't. It's normal and human to want to benefit yourself and your family, that's not a particular criticism of men. Because patriarchy benefits men quite significantly, it's understandable that when it comes to them losing benefits they become reluctant - it's to be expected.

P.p.s Genuinely coming from a good place, so please be constructive with criticism! Also, was joking in 1st paragraph, just in case...

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 04/01/2017 17:45

Ok sparrow you hold dadbot down I'll start kicking him Grin

^However, for the layperson I don't think they will be aware of nuance, so if men want to think themselves feminists, I think that's probably good?!
Presumably the more people who identify as feminist the better^

Broadly I would agree with you, but I have no issue with calling men feminists.

BertrandRussell · 04/01/2017 18:00

"Presumably the more people who identify as feminist the better"

Well, only if they behave like feminists- otherwise it's a really bad thing.

How do men who identify as faminists behave?

TheSparrowhawk · 04/01/2017 18:01

I should point out here that in my opinion any man who watches porn is about a million miles away from being a feminist.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 04/01/2017 18:34

Well, only if they behave like feminists- otherwise it's a really bad thing

There's no one way feminists behave, there's no hive mind. I dare say some feminists on here don't think I "do feminism properly" (eg my attitude towards body hair).

TheSparrowhawk · 04/01/2017 18:48

The analogy that works for me is veganism. I can believe in fair treatment for animals, support animal charities etc but unless I actually follow the principles of veganism - ie never eating any animal product - there's no point in calling myself a vegan. Similarly a person might have views that chime with feminism, without being feminists.

Dadbot3000 · 04/01/2017 18:57

Thanks for appreciation of bravery - this is a pretty scary thread to wade in on...

All I'm saying is, maybe men can't be proper "feminists", but it serves everyone's purpose if they believe they can and I think everyone should try to recruit as many as possible. Even moving people towards feminism is worthwhile. Rather have the world filled by wannabe feminist porn watchers than wife beating MRAs

TheSparrowhawk · 04/01/2017 19:03

I don't think it serves everyone's purpose if they believe they can but I can see why you think that. I don't want the world filled with wannabe feminist porn watchers - you might as well say 'let's have a world filled with cow-slaughtering vegans' - it makes no sense, not to me anyway.

Dadbot3000 · 04/01/2017 19:04

I think the Vegan analogy is a fair one, but there is a point to telling full on carnivores that you're a vegan even if you eat eggs - make other people think about how they impact on animals lives, get them to eat free range at least then go from there.

TheSparrowhawk · 04/01/2017 19:04

Sorry that should be 'cow-slaughtering wannabe vegans'

CharlieSierra · 04/01/2017 19:06

I don't think it serves feminism's purpose to have the term feminist coined by people who aren't and who don't understand what feminism is. You cannot consume porn if you understand the basic principles, and on that basis alone I don't see you as a benefit or ally.

TheSparrowhawk · 04/01/2017 19:08

I agree Charlie.

CocoaX · 04/01/2017 19:17

If you see porn as the objectification and subjugation of women, commodifying sex and women for (mainly) male consumption, it is on a continuum which sees women as lesser. It sells an ideal of women as sexual objects which shapes expectations of all women. It is a form of control as is wife beating.

Wife-beating MRAs such as they exist are more overtly and clearly dangerous to women. Liberal, porn-watching, aspiring feminist allies are less overt and more subtly dangerous, because it is like professing equality until it comes to sexual satisfaction and then it doesn't matter.

Not phrasing this well, but I find the wolf in sheeps clothing more disturbing that the obvious wolf.

CharlieSierra · 04/01/2017 19:19

but it serves everyone's purpose if they believe they can and I think everyone should try to recruit as many as possible. Even moving people towards feminism is worthwhile. Rather have the world filled by wannabe feminist porn watchers than wife beating MRAs

And here we have another man wading in and telling us what we need. I want a world free of porn consumers AND MRAs - also men who cannot help telling women what they want and need.
And quite frankly coming on FWR and telling women you get off watching prostituted women is disgusting, I don't know why you think that's ok. Oh wait....

TheSparrowhawk · 04/01/2017 19:19

I agree entirely Cocoa, give me the 'nice tits' guy over the 'I'm a kind and lovely feminist who visits strip clubs' any day.

HilbertRiddle · 04/01/2017 19:22

Oh God we are onto pornstar now?

CharlieSierra · 04/01/2017 19:23

Totally, at least you know they're arseholes the minute they speak. Still, it doesn't take them long to show their true selves does it, however they start.

HilbertRiddle · 04/01/2017 19:23

Porn i meant that was autocorrect.

HilbertRiddle · 04/01/2017 19:27

This reply has been deleted

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Dadbot3000 · 04/01/2017 19:28

Point taken, I am neither feminist nor ally.

I guess being a male feminist is an impossible ideal, but surely the point is that people at least aspire to it?

If all men took just one step up on the feminism ladder the world would be a better place?!