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Original poster

Third wave feminism

112 replies

Tiredeyes89 · 15/12/2016 16:18

Long time lurker here, this is my first post so please excuse if I'm not very coherent Blush just wondering what the general consensus on third wave/intersectional feminists are? I ask because today I saw a post on a feminist Facebook page about the situation in Aleppo, and a woman had commented asking what kind of freedom did the civilians want,which was a bizarre question I though. When someone suggested she might want to do some research about the conflict in Syria she replied to the poster that as a black woman she didn't need to educate herself, and that people only care about the Syrian conflict and the staggering number of civilian deaths because they are white and she wanted to know if the Syrian civilians wanted freedom for " the black folk trans folk and genderqueer folk ". If not, then she wasn't particularly bothered. I was astounded by it all and anyone who disagreed with her was racist, and transphobic. I have this awful feeling third wave feminism is dragging us backwards, almost like it's come about to keep us busy fighting amongst ourselves rather than the patriarchy...any thoughts? (Sorry if I've ranted on abit!)Blush

OP posts:
Leila78 · 17/12/2016 07:18

There really are wrong campaigns Fruit Cider. 'Feminists' who support the sex industries are not feminists.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/12/2016 10:21

Intersectional feminism is not the same as third wave feminism.

No, but many third-wavers claim that it is one of the factors that distinguishes the third from the second wave.

I disagree I have to say. Intersectionality might be a new word, but second wave feminism did raise and challenge the multiple oppressions that women of colour / black women, working class women, lesbian women faced. There is a whole literature on class and feminism, for example.

I'll ponder comments to my previous post and reply later ...

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 13:02

There really are wrong campaigns Fruit Cider. 'Feminists' who support the sex industries are not feminists.

I guess it depends on how you define "supports the sex industry".

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/12/2016 13:12

I guess it depends on how you define "supports the sex industry".

Using the term "sex industry" is a big giveaway as far as I'm concerned. Other less mealy- mouthed terms are available; commercial sexual exploitation or prostitution for example.

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 13:25

And what about the prostitutes who do not wish to be called a prostitute?

The thing that really gets me annoyed in conversations about monetary exchange for sex is that the voices of the women selling sex are ignored. This is where intersectionality comes in. How does the language used and the prejudices from the world affect women that exchange sex for money? What do these women have to say about it?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/12/2016 13:32

And what about the prostitutes who do not wish to be called a prostitute?

Is there any other job/ profession on the planet which has to have a special name to prettify /santitise/ obscure what the job actually is?

What is the Nordic Model? – Nordic Model Now!
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

We reject the terms “sex work” and “sex worker” because they imply that prostitution is innocuous and wholesome; that it is work like any other type of work, when nothing could be further from the truth

There is a large international movement led by survivors of prostitution that asks that we do not use these terms for this reason. They prefer the term “prostituted woman”

MysticTwat · 17/12/2016 13:37

Fruit
Here are some voices, some even says the people pushing for legalisation, were not interested in what they had to say.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2799410-Guest-post-I-didnt-think-of-my-prostitution-as-traumatic-but-it-left-me-with-PTSD

Leila78 · 17/12/2016 14:34

Agreed Lass. Prostitution and its filmed twin, prostitution, are nothing less than the sexual exploitation of women - and in some cases men (which is no better). They represent patriarchy and predatory capitalism at their most vile.

Leila78 · 17/12/2016 14:35

Sorry - that should have read 'prostitution and its filmed twin, pornography....

scallopsrgreat · 17/12/2016 17:16

Just going back to the racial bias with Syria. As other people have said she may have a point there. Did you know, for example that 340000 southern Sudanese people have fled to Uganda since July. That is the largest refugee movement this year.

Not sure what she meant about Syrian civilians having to support trans or gender queer folk, especially given that the vast vast majority of trans and gender queer folk have more privilege in their left thumb than civilians in Syria having the living daylights bombed out of them Hmm.

FruitCider · 17/12/2016 21:04

I'm not in agreement with the Nordic model. It has its failings.

Is there any other job/ profession on the planet which has to have a special name to prettify /santitise/ obscure what the job actually is?

Umm yes, my own job.

And to the poster quoting the guest post, the guest poster is happy to be called a prostitute. That did not answer my question. There are many stigmatising words to describe many groups of society. Why is it acceptable to stigmatise people who use sex to earn money by insisting on calling them prostitutes?

DeviTheGaelet · 17/12/2016 22:42

quencher thank you for you post, it was amazing and insightful

fruit Surely the definition of prostitute is someone who sells sex for money? Why is it stigmatising to call a prostitute that? I think some prefer the term "sex work" so they can sweep prostitution up into a broader class that seems less risky e.g. alongside strippers, people who work sex chat lines (don't know if these are even a thing any more), women who sell dirty pants and shoes on eBay etc. Then it's easier to pretend prostitution is somehow empowering and a choice.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/12/2016 00:02

Why is it acceptable to stigmatise people who use sex to earn money by insisting on calling them prostitutes?

Answer the definition of prostitute is someone who sells sex for money

Still can't think of any other job or profession where using the dictionary definition for it is "stigmatising".

I'm very happy for punters to be stigmatised. I'd be very happy for punters to be held in the same contempt that most people hold drunk drivers.

Leila78 · 18/12/2016 01:00

Agree Lass. Punters are scum. But we should broaden prostitution to include pornography. There's essentially no difference.

FruitCider · 18/12/2016 05:51

I'm very happy for punters to be stigmatised. I'd be very happy for punters to be held in the same contempt that most people hold drunk drivers.

Again, that isn't the question I asked. We are not talking about punters being stigmatised. I am raising the point of women being stigmatised by the insistence of calling them prostitutes. What about their voice?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/12/2016 09:16

You already have your answer. Prostitution , prostitute or prostituted women are the words which describes what they do.

It is you who is insisting these words are unacceptable. I would reiterate my point, I can't think of any other job where the job description is so stigmatising it can't be used.

Rather emphasises prostitution is not a job.

quencher · 18/12/2016 11:49

Black men rarely look inward to think of the women and how this translate to racist or an outsider looking at the race and making judgment.
What I meant was they perpetuate some of the negative stereotypes of black women created during slavery and after. Intern this perpetuates racism and it does not help if you are trying to fight a cause that involves both sexes to stick together and move forward. The imbalance creates hatred and stifling of the movement. Most of the time it feels like they are in the fight only to gain power for themselves and not the women. I say this because they only ho ha is when the issue concerns black men. I blame the way society is built but you would think they would know better when it came to race issues.

I am sure there are lots of straight white men with mental health problems who are feminist and/or don't 'leave all childcare and house work to women'. Yes! That is true. However, the recent stats I read linked most of the male suicide to things related to what patriarchy as of them to achieve. During the financial crush you get a lot of men committing suicide too. Most linked to people who could not provide for their families or felt like failures. Lots of reason out their for suicide both in men and women and it's something we can't eradicate but if there are ways of how we can help, why not.

FruitCider · 18/12/2016 12:44

I have volunteered with women that walk the streets and they HATE being called prostitutes. You are missing the point entirely. Your insistence on using language that they find offensive shows that your view is extremely clipped and you are not interested in their needs whatsoever, you just want to push your own agenda.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/12/2016 13:58

Anecdotal evidence doesn't amount to much in this context, FruitCider. I interviewed some prostitutes for work once and none of them had as issue with what they were called. My experience differs from yours and there are millions of prostitutes. There's no grounds for a conclusion either way.

Flower sellers were often prostitutes in Victorian times, conveying an unrealistic but attractive image of a woman on a London street corner with a fragrant basket of roses. However relabeling prostitutes "flower sellers" (or anything else for that matter) would just transfer the hideous statistics of rape, murder and addiction to another label. It wouldn't change the appalling nature of what they do. Calling it "sex work" makes it sound like any other job. You don't characteristically get raped as part of your working conditions in any other form of employment.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/12/2016 14:14

Of course "sex work" and "sex industry" includes pimps and brothel keepers or as Scot Pep calls them "management"

We believe that sex work is work, and deserves the same protections as other work sectors

We unequivocally oppose all forms of criminalisation of sex work (including sex workers, clients, management and others related to sex workers)
We call for the decriminalisation of sex work, including the purchase and sale of sex and other activities related to sex work

YetAnotherSpartacus · 18/12/2016 14:23

I have also worked with women who have been exploited through prostitution. They hate the term sex work, considering that it gives legitimacy to their exploitation. They refer to themselves as prostitution survivors. Their voices are important too.

Seachangeshell · 18/12/2016 14:35

www.feministcurrent.com/2013/12/08/10-myths-about-prostitution-trafficking-and-the-nordic-model/
This is a really interesting article answering some of the so-called problems with the Nordic model.

quencher · 18/12/2016 15:32

Scallop you really made a good point. That is a huge number of people. Most will be women and children. About eight months ago there was a report from amnesty saying rape was being used as weapon on the women there. Very Sad and sickening.

RitchyBestingFace · 18/12/2016 18:23

I disagree I have to say.
Not sure what you are disagreeing with Confused

FruitCider · 18/12/2016 21:01

Interestingly charities working with this group dont call people that exchange sex for money "prostitutes".

one25.org.uk

This is why I feel insisting on using the term "prostitute" is a veiled attempt at dehumanising these people and works to stigmatise them further.

www.google.co.uk/amp/junkee.com/sex-work-analogy-prostitute-slur/43410/amp?client=safari

Prostitute = slur. Unless you are a "prostitute", what gives you the right to determine what this group of people are called?!?!? This is why some types of feminism, particularly those crowded by white middle class women, will never be intersectional.