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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

'Getting Engaged'

144 replies

YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 08:07

Someone I know just got engaged. Same sex relationship. Other person older and quite controlling, probably the 'asker' as opposed to the 'askee'.

This situation got me thinking about engagement. (Usually) man goes to woman's father to ask for her hand in marriage - so woman being passed from man to man. Woman having to wait around to be asked, and appear delighted when asked. I hate it, every aspect of it is designed to control and subjugate women.

Don't know what I'm asking really, it just all seems so wrong.

(Disclaimer: am married but we decided to do it together and didn't have an engagement, ring etc).

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 06/12/2016 10:27

It makes me a bit ill. My two best friends, both highly intelligent, successful women did the 'waiting for him to propose' thing, complete with fake surprise when he did, and screaming about the ring.

In both cases, the women had made it clear that marriage and a proposal were expected, and if non forthcoming the relationship would end.

But the minute the ring appears its 'oh my God! I'm so happy! He asked me to marry him!' and we all have to forget the pressure/ ultimatum that led him to do so.

It's a part of modern life that leaves me utterly baffled.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 10:29

Am really interested to hear all the opposing viewpoints, by the way, absolutely no judgement intended. Since I was really young I've always questioned why we do things a certain way, and why some things don't change (and why they don't change). It fascinates me.

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SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 10:29

I disagree, there is more on the shoulders of the man financially when you decide to have a family, in so many cases. You are very lucky if everything goes well, but around me, I have witnessed mainly:
women having to take time off during pregnancy, because they physically needed it.
women taking time off to give birth (obviously)
women taking time off work to recover. You are not even allowed to drive for 6 weeks after a c-section.

That's fine, that's biology. In my house, we wouldn't have survived on my salary only. I receive very large performance bonus (completely equal, no-one cares about your gender, which is exactly as it should be), and I would have lost too much by being off. So yes, it's was up to my husband to take care of the house.

If we could stop demanding blind equality, which means women are losing out!, and be more open minded about different needs, we would make better progress. That's another subject entirely.

amispartacus · 06/12/2016 10:31

I suppose it's hard to discuss when someone does get engaged and proudly shows off their engagement ring. It might come across a bit negative if someone was to discuss the whole issue and women getting so excited at the whole thing and especially the ring.

It's hard to challenge expectations.

Reiltin · 06/12/2016 10:37

A comment on the original post:
I'm a woman married to a woman. She's older, high-flying career. People would assume that she's the 'man'. But I proposed to her, which surprises everyone. Didn't ask anyone's permission. I loved it because, though we had discussed marriage and it was the plan for the future, the proposal came out of the blue for her. She was so excited, as was I. I enjoy a little pomp and ceremony, which is what it was. We split the cost of engagement rings, as mine was more expensive than hers. We had a fancy ceremony with white poofy dresses and both of our parents walked each of us down the aisle.
I guess the point of my rambling post above is that people can make what they want to tradition. We took the bits we liked, ignored the bits we didn't, and loved every minute of it. Just because we had a surprise engagement doesn't mean we felt we couldn't do anything else - I did it how I wanted.
My only issue with tradition is when it means people don't have an option. If someone feels they have to do something they don't want to (like an above poster's brother having to ask the dad's permission), that's when it becomes a problem.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 10:37

amis yes, I can't be pooping the party in RL. I knew I'd be able to ask these questions here and find some similar discomfort.

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SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 10:42

I think it would be mean. The beauty of our society (sadly not true worldwide) is that you can chose to do and be anything you like. Marry, don't marry, that will have absolutely no consequence on your work situation and your life. Women are excited about their ring, they are happy!

I love the ring, I like jewelry! and it's a piece that I will wear all my life, that someone chose because he loves me. I love the wedding dress, it's the only time I can wear such a beautiful gown. If I was an A-Star doing red carpets events, I would have loads, but as it is, I only have one beautiful wedding dress. I could have got married in shorts if I wanted to but I wanted a dress. That can make me shallow, but I fail to see how it makes me inferior to my husband. We have the same rights about our house, our jobs, our life, in practice I would have more rights about my children. I can't think of a single thing where I am being discriminated or made inferior as a woman (again, in this country).

welshgirlwannabe · 06/12/2016 10:46

My dp also shoulders more financially. I'm going back very part time and he is currently earnings 3x what I do. This doesn't mean he's taking on more of the 'burden' of family life. And my contribution, paltry though it may be, is very much needed. Basically, we wouldn't survive without each other in our current situation. That make us a team and makes us equal.

The problem with saying the man is shouldering the burden is it implies the need to gratitude on behalf of the burdensome woman!

That just seems all kinds of wrong.

amispartacus · 06/12/2016 11:01

I love the ring, I like jewelry

Would you have gone halves to buy it?

SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 11:04

well, if my DH working full time allows me to work part-time, then yes, I should be grateful. Single parents have to work full time and don't have the luxury to lean on someone else. There should be an acknowledgement of the role of the full time partner.

That has nothing to do with being "equal", we are talking about finance, not the individual. I am not defined by the amount I am earning, I have the same rights and weight in my house. If my DH was unable to work for health-related reasons, he would still be an equal! However, I hope he would acknowledge that me working full time to support the family is a bloody heavy weight to carry.

Sparlklesilverglitter · 06/12/2016 11:04

It's personal choice

I have a few friends that asked the man, and friends that decided together to get married.

I like the fact DH asked me, I am a sucker for tradition! We are equal in our relationship every way though

SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 11:08

I love the ring, I like jewelry
Would you have gone halves to buy it?

Absolutely not. We share the cost of the wedding rings, but I would not spend a cent in my engagement ring. I don't care if it costs £100 or £10,000 (as long as it goes with my now DH job!) it's the principle, I don't pay for half my birthday presents either.

user1475253854 · 06/12/2016 11:10

reiltin that sounds lovely. I've been involved in weddings the past few years and doing same-sex weddings has been really nice. You get to ask each person what they are choosing to wear and who is walking down the aisle without any expectations from friends/family/society. IME same sex couples appear to put more thought into all the bits that people normally just accept because there is no 'tradition' for them.
I know there are lots of hetero couples who do this too, but maybe because I worked at a typical conventional country house type place I didn't see many.

I used to ask couples if they wanted a line-up where you greet your guests going into the wedding breakfast and quite a few hadn't heard of it/weren't that fussed. It's funny how some traditions like that aren't seen as important, but father walking daughter down aisle/giving her away and all male speeches are. Again, just from my experience.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 11:11

maui but you buy each other birthday presents, right? Only he buys you an engagement ring and not vice versa.

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SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 11:11

*re the jewelry:

but I have no opinion on how other couple manage the ring (or no ring)! It's a very personal choice.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 11:13

all male speeches

Oh my god, user there's another one! Because women have nothing to say. Christ, I hadn't even twigged. Again, DH and I both did speeches and had a speech each from best man/woman.

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KatherinaMinola · 06/12/2016 11:13

I know what you're saying re all the friffery, but getting engaged simply means that you are engaged to be married - just as you would be engaged to start a job in three months' time. That a marriage is planned but has not happened yet.

amispartacus · 06/12/2016 11:15

it's the principle

What did you buy him when you got engaged?

SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 11:16

YokoUhOh

Indeed, birthday presents are common, I unashamedly am the only one to get an engagement ring. I suppose I could have bought him a watch to celebrate, but it didn't even cross my mind. Too late now Grin

I wouldn't even have thought about buying him a present when our babies were born. I might be a bit unfair there, but again, a bit late!

I suppose because we are a couple, we don't keep records of things. I couldn't tell you who spends more on presents, in our case it doesn't matter. One does more one year, the other does more the next. I can't say it's an issue.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 11:16

all male speeches

Still shaking head at this. Why???!!!

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amispartacus · 06/12/2016 11:17

I wonder what would happen if someone did NOT buy an engagement ring when they proposed?

Would there be upset?

Fink · 06/12/2016 11:19

I have been abundantly clear with everyone I've dated that if they even think that asking my father for permission, or in any way discussing our marriage plans with my father in my absence, is acceptable then they need to seriously re-think their ideas or the relationship stops there. Some of my female friends and relatives have been Hmm at the idea that I consider this to be a deal breaker but I honestly cannot see how anyone could want to be in a relationship with someone who, either through dimwitted sheep-like adherence to 'tradition' or because they genuinely think it is a good thing to do, would treat me as a chattel.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 11:19

maui it's just interesting how these things are approached in relationships.

DH and I never buy each other stuff, save the odd small birthday present. Maybe that's a bit weird, I don't know how I feel about presents in a relationship. Perhaps I'm a bit squeamish about that too.

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 06/12/2016 11:19

I know what you're saying re all the friffery, but getting engaged simply means that you are engaged to be married - just as you would be engaged to start a job in three months' time. That a marriage is planned but has not happened yet.

Yes. And I think that's actually quite sensible - planning it in advance. Less stressful if you plan to have a big wedding, and if you don't, it still makes sense to consider the matter for a while instead of just jumping into it.

Regarding all the traditions attached to it ... well, in the times when marital rape was legal, you'd bet a man would have to beg me on his knees to marry him. (Would probably still have said no)

What I dislike is the social obligation to have a big wedding and "hen do" and whatnot.

Other than that, actual laws that for example give married couples without children a tax advantage over unmarried mothers, are something I get far more angry about when it comes to marriage and the stuff attached.

SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 11:20

wonder what would happen if someone did NOT buy an engagement ring when they proposed

The answer is as varied as there are couples! Some want a ring, some wants to chose it themselves, some want a tattoo, others nothing at all. Ideally, when people decide to get married, they have an idea of what the other one thinks. If you don't know the values of someone, and their thoughts about traditions (for or against), then you might be a bit hasty about becoming a couple.

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