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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

'Getting Engaged'

144 replies

YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 08:07

Someone I know just got engaged. Same sex relationship. Other person older and quite controlling, probably the 'asker' as opposed to the 'askee'.

This situation got me thinking about engagement. (Usually) man goes to woman's father to ask for her hand in marriage - so woman being passed from man to man. Woman having to wait around to be asked, and appear delighted when asked. I hate it, every aspect of it is designed to control and subjugate women.

Don't know what I'm asking really, it just all seems so wrong.

(Disclaimer: am married but we decided to do it together and didn't have an engagement, ring etc).

OP posts:
Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 09:53

Isn't the 'will he/won't he?' a little bit...gaslight-y? 'See if you can guess whether I think you're worthy of marrying me'.

OP posts:
amispartacus · 06/12/2016 09:53

I proposed to my DP on leap day this year

Ahh. The one day every 4 years when it's the woman's turn Grin

Tradition...It's got a lot to answer for.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 09:53

amis that was how we did it, not saying it was the right way but it seemed like the only equal way.

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Manumission · 06/12/2016 09:54

I don't know whether to ask about the leap day thing or the nerf gun thing Pizza Smile

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 09:55

pizza I'm actually pretty envious of that story Grin

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RNBrie · 06/12/2016 09:55

I waited for dh to propose and then did the big thing. Ridiculous behaviour that I'm ashamed of now (6 years later and very happily married).

I regret the big fancy wedding that cost us a fortune too but that's a different issue.

It was one of the most important decisions of our lives at the time - to get married - and I sat around waiting for a proposal rather than just having a grown up adult discussion about it. We don't book a weekend away without discussing it first, why would we not do the same about spending the rest of our lives together?!?

Anyway, I do think it's is a society/patriarchy thing. My brother is in a same sex marriage, his partner raised marriage with him as a topic "I would like to marry you, what do you think?" they discussed it and my brother agreed that he had been thinking along the same lines and a year later they got married. All very sensible and straightforward.

Snowflake65 · 06/12/2016 09:57

This is very relevant as I have just seen a Facebook post of an acquaintances filmed public proposal followed by obligatory ring photo with the status "Finally he asked and I of course said yes!".

I don't get the 'waiting round to be asked' if you want to be married to someone it is a pragmatic discussion about values / finances / life choices etc followed by a marriage.

If DP and I decide to get married, I would want him to ask my DCs not my Dad as they are the ones who would have to live with him!

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 09:57

Thank you brie really interesting to hear and glad you're still happy.

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reindeerbitesback · 06/12/2016 10:00

I wouldn't have agreed to marry my OH if he had asked my father's permission first. The implication and assumptions make me feel ill. I didn't know of the tradition until I moved to the UK, it doesn't happen so much where I am from. My OH did "ask" me but that was after I had made it clear that I would like to marry him but was happy to wait until he was ready.

My SIL however, found it very important that my brother went to her father before they 'got engaged'. Mainly I think as it was important to her father to keep up the tradition. My brother found it terribly awkward and humiliating to have to ask for permission to marry the mother of his son.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/12/2016 10:02

It's not something I've really thought about. It's just an agreement to get married, and doesn't imply what OP is suggesting necessarily. I proposed first, then he did (so he could say he'd gone down on one knee, though he was naked at the time). Then he asked my dad for my hand in marriage, to which my dad replied "as long as you take the rest of her." We're always joking in my family. We didn't have a party or a ring, though we did meet up with both sets of parents for a meal out, as they hadn't met before.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 10:03

manumission

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Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 10:03

Whoops manumission I'm guessing you got married in Ibiza? Grin

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PensionOutOfReach · 06/12/2016 10:04

The OP left me wondering TBH. Is there anyone who still goes to ask the father of the (hopefully) bride for his agreement?

I asked DH if he wanted to get married. He said yes. That was it.

He didn't get me a ring (but his mum gave him one from a distant relative and told him to use it to make said ring - there was no way he could say NO to his mum lol)
My parents had never met DH (due to the fact they were living overseas)

We must be weird !!

I love pizza way though. And I fully agree with Brie any other thing is always discussed before hand. Why on earth don't we do that about getting married?

Manumission · 06/12/2016 10:04

Not quite Smile

It's the other kind of manumission Wink

SouthofMaui · 06/12/2016 10:05

Meh! I love the tradition of it, and I have never felt like property of anyone, my father or my now husband. It's entirely up to you how you decide to interpret the whole thing nowadays. You can see that the man is committing already to take care of his wife and family, so there is a lot more on his shoulders if you look at it that way. Also, when the man proposes, you know that you can say no (as awkward as can be). I like to know that the man choses to make the step, I don't like the idea of an easy option of just saying yes on his part. I don't want to take the initiative on that side. What other people decide to do is up to them.

I love my engagement ring, I loved being proposed to, it means a lot to me, but it's very personal. I am free as can be in my marriage (I don't mean I am cheating), our house was bought with our 2 salaries, we have always been equal. I took time off with the kids, because I needed it physically. I love the jewelery I was given after giving birth

I am more than happy to take my DH name, because I want my kids to have the same name than us, so it's easier anyway. It's all good to chose to hyphenate, but what happen when they get married? Do they become Mr name1-name2-name3-name4?

amispartacus · 06/12/2016 10:06

Well, you could analyse the whole wedding ceremony and tradition and highlight the inherent sexism.

Dressing in white
Veil.
Being led by your father.
Being given away by your father.
The vows
The best man's speech.
Father of the bride's speech.
Groom's speech.

etc.

I know times are changing and some people do it differently.

ClaraLane · 06/12/2016 10:07

My husband spoke to both of my parents about proposing to me, he also spoke to his parents too. We knew we would get married and had discussed it many times over the years but he wanted to have the big proposal so I let him. He didn't ask my dad's permission, it was more of a courtesy than anything. He is fully aware that I'm not his possession any more than I was ever my dad's possession. Just because people appear to be sheep going down the traditional route doesn't mean they actually are.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 10:12

clara I didn't call anyone a sheep, I'm genuinely puzzled that these traditions are widely accepted, observed and well loved by successive generations of educated, feminist career women.

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Spudlet · 06/12/2016 10:14

We discussed getting married, we knew we both wanted to. But DH wanted to do the proposal and ring thing, so that's what we did. He'd have had a job asking my dad since he's never met the man, but he wouldn't have done anything so ridiculous anyway.

It's fairly judgemental to assume that you know everything about a relationship from one social media post...

welshgirlwannabe · 06/12/2016 10:15

I don't know. Doesn't engagement just signal a commitment to marriage these days?

I'm engaged. We've been together about 7 years, have a mortgage together and have been raising my son together. When I was pregnant earlier this year I started to feel that it made sense to get married for various reasons. We discussed it on and off and agreed it made sense, although neither one of us had been bothered about it before. At this point I didn't feel 'engaged'.

When the baby was a few weeks old dp told me he'd bought me something and gave me a ring. It's not a diamond and probably didn't cost more than £40, which is about the max I'd feel comfortable with spending our limited funds on. He didn't ask me to marry him. That would have been stupid and weird as we'd already discussed it like adults. And he would never think to ask anyone's permission. Again, adults.

There is no inequality here. The ring doesn't signify my becoming a possession, any more than him wearing a tie I'd bought him would.

At some point we have to be able to shape traditions into what we want them to be without feeling constrained by history. It's normal to want to mark significant events, such as deciding to get married. Yes, it may have patriarchal undertones but does that mean we have to reject the whole idea?

And there will always be a need for someone to broach the idea of getting married!

ClaraLane · 06/12/2016 10:18

Yoko But why are you puzzled? Surely it should be enough for you to understand that different people do different things? My decision doesn't undermine anyone else's decision and nor should my decision be looked down on because it is traditional.

If I'd only done things because they were traditional then I could understand but believe me, I thought through every aspect of my wedding and now my marriage and nothing has been done for the sake of tradition alone. I could have insisted on walking down the aisle of the church on my own instead of with my dad but it meant a lot to my dad to walk me down and I also wanted someone by my side as I knew how emotional I would be.

amispartacus · 06/12/2016 10:18

Yes, it may have patriarchal undertones but does that mean we have to reject the whole idea

Maybe a man should be walked down the aisle by his mum?

Here he is, he's yours. Good luck. Grin

EBearhug · 06/12/2016 10:18

And it's a marriage not a wedding.

Isn't the wedding the ceremony in which you get married (be it register office with two witnesses or a cathedral and big white dress) and the marriage the whole thing until death or divorce do you part?

Although I think there are people who forget it's meant to be a lifelong commitment, rather than just one big day, which is the wrong focus, probably.

Original poster
YokoUhOh · 06/12/2016 10:20

spudlet I know nothing about the relationship from social media, I know them in RL. And I know very little about them at all. I Thought about not mentioning it but wanted to give background as to what made me ponder the topic.

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welshgirlwannabe · 06/12/2016 10:21

I disagree with maui though. Sorry. The man is not agreeing to take care of the woman, and there is not more on his shoulders. Not in this house. That's actually the opposite of equality isn't it? I would be so so uncomfortable with that.

In my family we take care of each other!! I really think we need to move away from this notion that in marriage the man is taking on a responsibility that the woman isn't. Like a burden that he is masculine enough to shoulder.

I would hate to have a relationship like that. Sorry.

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