Jenni Murray Woman's hour today (trans)

[Notwhatiexpected]

Hey,
Did anyone hear Jenni Murray on woman's hour today, her guest was India Willoughby. India is trans and was advocating that it was correct for the Dorchester to dictate that their female staff shave their legs.

India was very spiked in her conversation and implied Jenni was transphobic because the panalists didn't agree.

Again, a woman being called transphobic because they didn't agree with a transwoman's opinion.

Thank you Jenni for standing up for women!

I don't understand this 'women mustn't be victims because it's the wrong mind set' issue.

I don't, and never have felt, like a victim - nothing like it. But if I was attacked, I don't see how me yelling I'm not a victim would have any bearing on the matter.

I don't think being a victim of something is a mindset. It's a result.

Right. But feminism relies on a kind of universal female experience of suffering, that many women neither relate to or are aware of. But because you feel it, and other people of the same sex who think the same way as you do, you can brand your movement "female" and say that they are denying the obvious.

But on the other hand you are correct to point out there is nothing that unites all women. It would be wrong for any one person to say "this is what being a women feels like". To me both feminism and transgenderism require a definition of what it means to be a woman which goes a little further than just a vagina, but there isn't one.

I'm also not sure why a woman in a cubicle is any more vulnerable than one alone in a train carriage, or on a bus etc etc.

Feminism doesn't rely on a universal female experience of suffering. It is about guaranteeing women a set of rights. If an individual woman never finds herself in need of having those rights guaranteed, good for her.

But some women do not want the rights that you want to guarantee for them, infact they vocally disagree with some of them - abortion e.g. I don't want to get into a debate about the validity of feminism because it would be pointless.

Most feminism is uncontroversial, but the bits that are controversial are so because they require an understanding of what rights women need that women cannot agree on because they are too diverse, This definition of what is good for women is as spurious as the definition of "female" thoughts or feelings.

Women's rights are defined primarily by the UN and international law.

Women's rights are not some spurious concept that spring from Internet debate.

It's irrelevant that not all women agree on every issue.

I'm also not sure why a woman in a cubicle is any more vulnerable than one alone in a train carriage, or on a bus etc etc.

First up, changing rooms, toilets, shared bathrooms etc are not usually monitored by CCTV for privacy reasons, unlike train carriages and buses which are now routinely monitored by CCTV or recorded. Also, a perpetrator is more likely to be interrupted or witnessed (important for securing a conviction in sex-based offences where women's reports are often disbelieved or disregarded). In a cubicle or toilet there is more chance of evading detection, perpetrating the offence undisturbed and a reduced likelihood of there being corroborating evidence or witnessses afterwards.

I don't understand what point you are making. Are you saying that the definition of what things women have a "right" to is not the subject of internet activism and feminists ?

And it is relevant because some women, some of whom I'm sure would even say they are feminist, would like to take those rights away.

Anyway - the point is that I think requiring that there is some universal experience of female hood is actually a very dangerous idea. I don't disagree that a man saying that they feel like they are a woman is meaningless and IMO silly. But if we say that the only thing that can count as feeling like a woman is e.g. the menopause or period cramps, then those obviously are of no use when it comes to defining political goals that require that all companies have quotas of female employees or stuff like that.

But on the other hand you are correct to point out there is nothing that unites all women. It would be wrong for any one person to say "this is what being a women feels like". To me both feminism and transgenderism require a definition of what it means to be a woman which goes a little further than just a vagina, but there isn't one.

There is indeed something that unites all women and that is the fact that they are adult, human and have a female reproductive system, this being a reproductive system for the gestation and birthing of offspring. Note that this reproductive system can be incomplete or partially or fully non-functioning and still be identifiable as a female reproductive system, which is objectively different and distinguishable from a male reproductive system (even where a male reproductive system is incomplete or partially/fully non-functioning).In the same way that a car can be incomplete or partially/fully non-functioning and still be identified as a car, distinguishable from other forms of transport such as boats and bicycles.

I'm also not sure why a woman in a cubicle is any more vulnerable than one alone in a train carriage, or on a bus etc etc.

You can't really be alone on a bus though, there is always a driver who can see what's going on in his bus through mirrors or cctv. Do train carriages still exist? Not having a car or bike, I've been on god knows how many trains and I've never seen a carriage other than in old films. I'm guessing they got rid of them partly because of safety concerns and partly as they weren't' economically efficient but women could usually choose a carriage with other people in it or change carriage if she felt unsafe.

Women's rights are defined primarily by the UN and international law

Women's rights are not some spurious concept that spring from Internet debate

That's entirely correct almond I think what flaxen is getting at that we often see on here statements about what it means to be a biological woman and that there are universal binding experiences.

Beyond having periods is there? And even then I don't recognise the description of the shame and mortification which some posters have used in relation to menstruation (eg the red tent thread which was a very odd mix of shame and let's all get together and have periods which did not resonate with me in any way )

So from my point of view "feels like a woman " coming from a trans woman is pretty much incomprehensible but the idea that there is some shared female life experience common to all women isn't much better.

sixpence

In the same way that a car can be incomplete or partially/fully non-functioning and still be identified as a car, distinguishable from other forms of transport such as boats and bicycles.

I believe a vagina is objectively different from a penis, so your point about all the other bits makes no sense unless you are trying to say that there is some universal experience attached to the possession of said system which can be extrapolated into a set of political goals.

Your 'point', as far as I understand it, was, as you said, that transgenderism and feminism both rely on a definition of what it means to be a woman that goes beyond having a vagina.

This is simply not the case.

Feminism does not define what it means to be a woman. Feminism is the advocacy of women's rights,

Those rights are defined primarily by the UN and international law.

Those rights do not define what it means to be a woman.

You seem to be conflating the defining of women's rights with defining what it means to be a woman.

Lass, indeed some people (and indeed some feminists) might want to discuss a shared life experience common to all women, but that isn't what feminism is actually for.

Feminism as a movement for women's rights under the law makes sense.

This makes little sense to me. I am guessing it's this sort of writing/ thinking that Flaxen is meaning?

The narrative of girlhood is exclusive, not just because it is culturally specific and ignores economic disparities, but because it requires that girls repress or entirely dispense with pieces of themselves in order to find their place within it. The experience that girls share is not so much that of being a girl but that of not being one

Womanhood, girlhood and shared exclusion | glosswatch
glosswatch.com/2013/12/16/womanhood-girlhood-and-shared-exclusion/

The only thing that women have in common is their sex. We are a sexually dimorphic species, barring birth defects we are all either male or female. I am a woman because of my anatomy and the life experience that goes with it. Had I been born with a dick I'd be a man.

Feminism holds that women, as a sex class, are oppressed by men, as a sex class. This does not mean that all individual women are oppressed by all individual men. Just as with race, the fact that an African American is POTUS doesn't mean racism no longer exists.

One of the offensive things about trans ideology is the concept that gender identity overrides sex, whereas in fact women cannot sidestep female oppression by identifying out of it. A naive young transman raped recently was reported to have said that she had told him she was a man but he just kept going. That she believed she could identify her way out of being treated like the woman she was displays the absurdity of such beliefs.

Slightly off topic, but I find it very telling that the new charity Tranz Sista Radio (launching officially next year) lists providing make-up and styling advice first on the list of what they will do, ahead of providing counselling and support. Because although it's enough to "feel like a woman" it's also important to present as a stereotypical women...?

Our community centers will be a safe place for gender variant people to come to seek advice from make up and styling to Careers advice and even into the more complex counseling issues

I know it's bad form to criticise grammar and sentence construction but I'd love to see "make up and styling" giving out advice.

I think that Glosswitch is describing a common, collective experience, but not a universal one. it reminds me of how Susie Orbach talks about treating women with anorexia. It's more of a psychological perspective I suppose.

You seem to be conflating the defining of women's rights with defining what it means to be a woman.

Perhaps I am. I have seen it said that men cannot be feminists because they do not have experience of being a women. Such a view is not controversial in feminist thinking. If this does not require a shared experience of being a woman, what does it mean ?

Lass - from their Twitter feed, it seems that the person writing all the promotional blurb for TSR is dyslexic. Still doesn't stop it setting my teeth on edge with the apostrophe misuse and badly written prose...

girl - actually, it isn't all widely accepted that a man cannot be a feminist

I would say that is part of identity politics thinking - the notion that if you don't belong to a particular group you are an 'ally.'

I would consider it very much a minority view that men cannot be feminists.

I'm one of those women who thinks a man can (almost) be a feminist. I just don't think he'd be very good at it. Largely because since he is a man, he doesn't experience what it's like to be a woman. I'm assuming that's why a lot of women don't think men can be feminists. I think if he goes out of his way to see life from a female perspective, as much as he can, then he might get a pass of sorts. But he would have to spend a lot of time on that one issue. Which would be rare, indeed.

I think if he goes out of his way to see life from a female perspective

But there is the problem, there is no such thing as a "female perspective" !!

girl - actually, it isn't all widely accepted that a man cannot be a feminist

It's been said a fair few times on here that men can't be feminists. That of course does not make it widely accepted but it is a viewpoint because of the lack of a shared experience.

Oleanna noted, in which case spell checker is your friend (or even use a real life friend) if you are issuing promotional material.

Most people aren't very good at political activism though, and often it isn't very good for people's mental health to immerse themselves entirely in it.

What's better is generally if people commit to a couple of smaller issues they feel they can support.

I would not consider myself to be politically active or particularly informed about sexual violence, for example, and I would consider it good enough to support those who are informed on the topic.