Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

I also agree with pp who said the op sounds very young and not well informed about what actually happens on hospital wards. I have never heard of a female nurse refusing to care for a patient because they had a penis 'for religious reasons'. It may possibly happen somewhere, but if it does it is extremely rare.

Nobody seems to oppose [single sex wards] and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

This in particular is bizarre. When you actually start work you'll realise it's not just that 'nobody seems to oppose' single sex wards, but that they are actually required by the regulator and all hospitals have to comply. The only areas where mixed sex wards are allowed are where it can be justified due to clinical need e.g. intensive care (and believe me, none of the male patients in ICU/HDU pose a danger).

In all other ward areas there are very strict rules and all breaches of the single sex accommodation rules must be reported.

So - as someone who is trans and has had NHS routine surgery, I can offer my experience - and my personal feelings - from my perspective.

I had skin cancer - and an operation to remove it. I woke up in the female area. At no point did I ask about where I would be and I wasn't told.

I will be honest and say I felt uncomfortable. You're not at your best after an operation and personally I just wanted to 'not be noticed' nor engage in any conversation - although the lady next to me did have a chat.

I then fell asleep and was surprised to wake up in my own room. Again - I wasn't told why and I didn't ask. I assumed it was because I was trans. Maybe something had been said.

TBH, it was great for me. No one looked at me, no one bothered me. I was not standing out. I would not want to be on a male ward as I would have felt very uncomfortable - and I might have made women feel uncomfortable on a female ward - plus I felt very self conscious.

I also had my own TV, plenty of space and own toilet. So a bit of privacy.

No one told me why I'd been moved - there was no discussion. I do wonder what would have happened if no rooms had been available or if someone with greater clinical need had needed it.

I certainly didn't object to being moved to my own room. But I would have been very uncomfortable if I had been moved to a male ward - as I feel I would have been the centre of attention. I don't think anything untoward would have happened - but there are some men who have an issue with trans women.

As far as the NHS in the future - I know that they need to know that I am trans. Apparently I still have a prostate gland - I have had surgery but the surgeon kept it in. I also am eligible for mammograms - HRT does increase the risk of breast cancer.

ego - I had sort of the reverse experience of moving beds when I was in hospital: I was initially put into a side room, as it was the only bed available, then was woken at about 2am to be moved out because someone had been admitted who wanted to pay for the side room so I had to shift out. Obviously I knew that there was the chance I would need to move, but it was incredibly disconcerting to be moved in a groggy, just got to sleep state. It must have been even worse to just wake up elsewhere. As with so many medical things, proper communication is key to all this.

*Ego
*
That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I hope you're better now.

As you said though, the private facilities were nicer, which poses an issue of unfairness. I'm not saying I have a better solution though, just commenting. Personally, I wish that nobody had to share in hospitals, but that's unrealistic!

HermioneWeasley "pink if you don't think what happened to Elendon is horrific then you have zero compassion and empathy for women.

I won't calm down about protecting women's rights, but thanks for the patronising attempt."

I have empathy for humans, why would I have more or less empathy for my own gender?

It's so-called "feminists" like you that give us all a bad name with your despicable attitude. How can you even think something like "Male socialisation doesn't end even if they're castrated" is even remotely appropriate to say?

Kennington
"Calm down kitty cat.
What sort of response is that? I would expect from a completely sexist male. " It's a response any normal human being would have to such a horrible comment.

If you were accessing medical help and didn't disclose your full medical, then I'd assume you were unbelievably fucking stupid. Surely no one is actually that stupid?

I was a receptionist in a walk-in clinic at one point, and had to get patients to fill in an extensive medical form. The number of people who happily left out vital information was scary. In a couple of cases it could have proved fatal (eg incompatible medication) and it was just chance, or in one case an observant family member, that we found out in time. I wonder how many more we never found out about. Presumably they all survived or we'd have heard about it... but yes, people are that stupid. Especially if they're ill and/or in pain and not thinking straight.

pink there are a seemingly endless supply of stories of MTT abusing women and girls that make it factual rather than despicable

Nothing can make a man into a woman.

Here we go again with facts and biology being hateful.

But well done you for being (to your mind) the "right" sort of feminist. Have a cookie.

HermioneWeasley - yes in my mind someone who thinks about castrating men and saying even that wouldn't be enough, is scum.

Eh? I don't think about castrating men and saying that wouldn't be "enough" (enough for what? What are you on about?)

I simply said that castrating men doesn't turn them into women or remove their male socialisation. Both of which are factually correct.

If you've read into my comment that iv got some sort of weird castration fantasy or fixation that I think you're the one who needs to calm down.

I quoted you on that multiple times. It reads exactly as you wrote it.

PinkIsRad

Hermione said that males retain their socialisation despite castration surgery (in order to present as a woman).

Was it the word castration ? It's the same as 'gender reassignment' surgery except not as severe, as it happens.

Datun

How you phrased it, is miles from what Hermione wrote, and I think you know that. If she had actually written "males retain their socialisation despite castration surgery (in order to present as a woman)" I would have had no problem. But she didn't. In addition, it still is a huge generalisation, we are talking about sexual offences here that Elendon gave an example and her response was to blame "male socialisation".

Whenever I try to speak up in situations there will always be some guy (well on the internet there's always a plethora of guys anyway) pointing to things so-called feminists have said, and Hermione sure sounds like one of them, and it's really annoying me. It just sounds bitter and angry and is just hindering us. It's also not constructive

You don't have to view yourself as a feminist in order to have a view on trans politics. That said I dislike that that the word feminist is being used as a slur.

For example I've taken Pink's post and replaced feminist with women.

Whenever I try to speak up in situations there will always be some guy (well on the internet there's always a plethora of guys anyway) pointing to things so-called womenhave said, and Hermione sure sounds like one of them, and it's really annoying me. It just sounds bitter and angry and is just hindering us. It's also not constructive

And my point is that women like Hermione make it into a slur.

Pink

She said
Male socialisation doesn't end even if they're castrated

Are you reading that as a punishment, for goodness sake?

Gender reassignment IS castration and more. It's the proper term for removal of the testicles.

Whatever 'guys on the Internet' want to call it.

And yes, a lot of women are bloody angry and exceptionally bitter about the way the tide is turning against them. What emotion do you think would be more appropriate?

Should we compromise? Be more collaborative? It's taken decade, after a decade to get the rights we do have. And there is still a massive amount of discrimination towards women, due to male socialisation.

As an example, people often cite the fact that rape within marriage was only made illegal in the early 90s. It took FIFTEEN years to get that law passed. Exactly how many years do you think it would've taken, if women (particularly women with husbands) were voting on that particular law instead of men protecting their conjugal rights?

And my point is that women like Hermione make it into a slur.

Of course women don't make it into a slur! Men do. Men are much happier with women who AREN'T feminists.

No, it is posts like yours Pink that do so.
As a woman and a mum of a son I am very concerned that men are choosing to castrate themselves.

The early 90s are already two decades ago.

And yes, stop being so bitter and angry. I don't know about you, but personally I started a job with a guy, and I got promoted first, and no he isn't a fuck up. I have never been put down because I was a girl. Teachers encouraged me just as much, professionally I am treated as an equal. We have it better than ever. So yes, stop being such a victim. No one is going to listen if you just cry and moan about how evil men are.

Oh flip. A woman standing up for women's rights phrases something in a way that can be picked apart and sure as heck, it'll be picked apart. It was obvious what Hermione meant, but when I read it I thought uh-oh. Framing every sentence in a post carefully - never forget the 'some' men and just say men etc etc gets so tedious but not as tedious as the derailing.

Pink, how would you suggest the NHS deals with transgender patients?

kua - I am quite sure it's exactly not posts like mine. And ok, why are you very concerned about that?

Datun - there's plenty of women out here who do too ;)

pink

If you can't acknowledged that male socialisation is a reality, due to the fact that you receive no personal disadvantage to you being a woman, then great.

A lot of other women aren't so fortunate. Best not to judge.

Datun, I'm one of the people who didn't know that trans could mean no medical treatment. I found out because of MN. All bar two in my friends and family group didn't know either. I think one of the issues that self ID happened quite fast. I honestly think it's a major factor in people not realising what's happening is going as far as, I think, parliament debate this week.

I don't think the average person on the street has a clue and I think media is a big issue here because we have entire articles referring to people by the wrong sex e.g. The runner who I believe was charged with murder recently.

I also feel I can't discuss it outside the friends and family circle, because I realised, from MN, that it's highly controversial. So when you say you can't believe people don't know, I think it's partly because a lot of people who do know are worried about discussing it.

Datun - there's plenty of women out here who do too ;)

Eh? so why are you posting on a feminist board then?